993tt calipers and 323x30mm rotors

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  • 91_S2
    S2Forum Maniac
    • Jul 2003
    • 612

    #31
    Raymond,

    You are one of few really honest guys around. Yes, it is hard to feel the difference in the pedal. The monobloc's are better in theory than conventional Brembos. They are also - incidentally - cheaper to produce. Go figure why Brembo hypes them so much.

    The honest truth is that most of us haven't a clue about real braking. Most beginners - me included - go out and figure more is better. If a 4 piston caliper on a 323x30 rotor is good, then a 10 piston caliper on a 380x34 mm carbon rotor is better!!

    It don't work that way. I remember Jackie Stewart saying how it took him years to learn how to go "off the brakes". I was what made him faster. Most of us brake like Frankenstein. We don't know zip about braking but we buy brakes that are too big.

    Do some real seat time on a track, talk to racers. After a point, it is the tires - tyres? - that are the limiting factor. Big calipers and huge rotors on an S2 only add to the unsprung weight and make for lousy handling. Don't add more weight than necessary to do the braking you need.

    There are jerks out there who think they will out brake you because they have huge calipers and huge rotors. No way. See you at the track dudes.

    For one time stopping, the sh*tty S2 original brakes will do fine. It is on the track, after repeated maximum braking, when your rotors are red hot and your fluid is near boiling temp and your fresh air induction system is putting as much cold air to the rotors as possible and you still can't brake, that you need bigger brakes.

    Racers talk about 3 kinds of fade.

    1 - Greeen fade because you didn't seat your new brake pads correctly and they are degassing

    2 - Fluid fade when your brake fluid is boiling. Your pedal goes soft because the fluid is boiling and air doesn't compress. This is why you need to keep fresh brake fluid in your car. It is hydroscopic, attacts water and water boils at 100C while you fluid may be at 105.

    3 - Real fade when your pedal is hard but the sucker still won't brake because your pads are so hot, the coefficient of friction has dropped. This is why there are street pads and racing pads.

    Sorry for the rant. Of course anyone can feel free to spend megabucks on brakes. But in the real world, on a track that really tests your brakes, the guy with the huge calipers and biggest rotors won't outbrake you.

    In the real world, all you need are RS2 calipers. After that, get stickier tires and kick ***!

    Comment

    • Corey
      Banned
      • Sep 2003
      • 2793
      • Country: United Kingdom

      #32
      Originally posted by Alistair C
      Corey - don't you mean Ninemeister.... ?
      I thought design 911 was only a new & used parts store?

      www.9mracing.co.uk

      ****** that's what happens when you are in a rush, I am so sorry to anyone that I may have mislead with that link.
      The public flailing will be in the morning.
      I have edited my previous to hide my error
      Corey
      01636 822288

      Comment

      • Corey
        Banned
        • Sep 2003
        • 2793
        • Country: United Kingdom

        #33
        Originally posted by 91_S2
        In the real world, all you need are RS2 calipers. After that, get stickier tires and kick ***!
        Why go with the older caliper that has corrosion issues were the pads sits, when the Monoblocks do not?
        Corey
        01636 822288

        Comment

        • 91_S2
          S2Forum Maniac
          • Jul 2003
          • 612

          #34
          Originally posted by Corey
          Why go with the older caliper that has corrosion issues were the pads sits, when the Monoblocks do not?
          Corrosion is a function of material, not construction. A monobloc caliper will also corrode. Water gets adsobed by the brake fluid. It pools and begins a corrosion process.

          A monobloc is only a stiffer constuction. It is not resistant to corrosion.

          Comment

          • NoNonsense
            Forum Sponsor
            • Apr 2004
            • 673
            • Home: Italy Current: United States

            #35
            Originally posted by raymor
            I might be


            I might be one of them....

            I used a 2mm suitably sized washer to space out the caliper bracket + loctite

            I used big reds from 928 Specialists in the US + pads + shims for $730

            A8 323mm discs from Eurocarparts in uk @ £55 pair

            RS2 Brackets @£40 ish each

            Modified RS brakelines @£4 each.

            My Porsche mechanic neighbour modifed them for me after laughing because I'd fitted the calipers to match the brakelines.... bleed nipples down

            Wrong ! Bleed nipples up ( air rises )

            I'd agree with David, on the road I'd probably struggle to notice the difference between split and monoblock calipers.

            HTH

            cheers
            Raymond
            Thanks for all the info...2mm shims it will be!!!
            Joe "NoNonsense"
            axis motorsport
            joe@axismotorsport.com

            "At the end of the game, the king and the pawn go back in the same box."

            Comment

            • Corey
              Banned
              • Sep 2003
              • 2793
              • Country: United Kingdom

              #36
              Originally posted by 91_S2
              Corrosion is a function of material, not construction. A monobloc caliper will also corrode. Water gets adsobed by the brake fluid. It pools and begins a corrosion process.

              A monobloc is only a stiffer constuction. It is not resistant to corrosion.
              Maybe I didn't explain clearly, I didn't mean that it is not resistant to corrosion, it is just that the Monoblocks do not suffer the same (or any) problem that the older 2 piece design does.

              Porsche/Brembo designed the problem out, if you are going to upgrade why give yourself the grief of using something that has a design weakness?
              Corey
              01636 822288

              Comment

              • Alistair C
                S2Forum Maniac
                • Jul 2003
                • 693

                #37
                Corey is referring to the steel backing plates which the pads run against. These corrode (perhaps encouraged by dissimilar metals rubbing?) and apparently jam the pad's movement causing them to stick.
                The new 996 monoblocs do not have these backing plates at all. Result - pads which don't jam & calipers which do their job more efficiently.

                PS who says they are cheaper to manufacure? Bolting together two halves of a standard caliper is alot cheaper than changing your whole manufacturing process to introduce sideways boring to such a fine tolerance.

                Comment

                • NoNonsense
                  Forum Sponsor
                  • Apr 2004
                  • 673
                  • Home: Italy Current: United States

                  #38
                  So what about all the Porsche 911 Turbo owners with the 993 body? what do they do? live with it?
                  Joe "NoNonsense"
                  axis motorsport
                  joe@axismotorsport.com

                  "At the end of the game, the king and the pawn go back in the same box."

                  Comment

                  • Corey
                    Banned
                    • Sep 2003
                    • 2793
                    • Country: United Kingdom

                    #39
                    Originally posted by NoNonsense
                    So what about all the Porsche 911 Turbo owners with the 993 body? what do they do? live with it?
                    Live with it or upgrade!
                    Corey
                    01636 822288

                    Comment

                    • NoNonsense
                      Forum Sponsor
                      • Apr 2004
                      • 673
                      • Home: Italy Current: United States

                      #40
                      Originally posted by Corey
                      Live with it or upgrade!
                      ...interesting.
                      Joe "NoNonsense"
                      axis motorsport
                      joe@axismotorsport.com

                      "At the end of the game, the king and the pawn go back in the same box."

                      Comment

                      • Stick Insect
                        S2Forum Fiend
                        • Dec 2003
                        • 2338
                        • Country: United Kingdom

                        #41
                        Originally posted by NoNonsense
                        So what about all the Porsche 911 Turbo owners with the 993 body? what do they do? live with it?
                        I have a caliper from a badly crashed 993, the pads needed to be removed with a crow bar!.

                        I feel that is why it was a badly crashed 993!

                        Most Porsches near here ( very common!) are status symbols and are not driven hard. There is a lady nearby who has a Porsche Turbo as her shopping car. It has a kiddy seat in the back and she doesn't go over 40MPH! It's only when the brakes are really needed that people find they have a problem>

                        The pad guides are Stainless steel which is a long way from Aluminium in the periodic table. The further apart things are in the periodic table the more likely they are to react with one another and corrode. Strangely stainless is worse tham mild steel for corrosion in this instance !

                        Don't fall into the trap of thinking that Silicon fluid stops corrosion. Water still gets in and sits in the brakes in little blobs of water and causes corrosion! Ihave just taken some photos showing the differences and will post them asap.

                        HTH

                        David

                        Comment

                        • Stick Insect
                          S2Forum Fiend
                          • Dec 2003
                          • 2338
                          • Country: United Kingdom

                          #42
                          Here is a photo of a Porsche 993 caliper. It shows ( a bit out of focus) the stainless steel brake pad guide. You can see the electrolytic corrosion which is the white furry stuff behind the guide. This is the problem with these calipers I'm afraid!

                          HTH

                          David[/QUOTE]
                          Attached Files

                          Comment

                          • auditude
                            S2Forum Addict
                            • Aug 2003
                            • 407
                            • Country: United States

                            #43
                            Originally posted by raymor
                            A8 323mm discs from Eurocarparts in uk @ £55 pair
                            Are these the same as what I've heard described as A8L rotors, spefically part number 4D0 615 301 A?

                            Thanks,

                            Ken
                            Kenneth
                            1990 Coupe quattro
                            1991 200q20v x 2
                            1985 4ksq 20vt project
                            1986 Coupe GT 10vt project
                            2006 Honda Ridgeline
                            1998 Honda VFR800FI

                            Comment

                            • auditude
                              S2Forum Addict
                              • Aug 2003
                              • 407
                              • Country: United States

                              #44
                              Originally posted by s2driveruk
                              I am talking to a parts company in the US about some 993tt calipers for me and am going to use the 323x30 disc with it...they also do the 928gts big black caliper for $274 each which is a steal. Big red price they quoted was $303 btw...

                              Email:
                              Big red fronts are 303.19 each and the blacks are 274.70 each. Both are
                              a week away from us at this time. USPS shipping going 4-6 weeks is about
                              44.00 and taking 4-10 day is about 63.00 usually taking longer than what
                              they say it will take also. Parts have always gotten to their
                              destination, just later than expected. Thanks, Jeff.

                              HTH,

                              David
                              David,

                              Do you mind sharing this source?

                              Thanks,

                              Ken
                              Kenneth
                              1990 Coupe quattro
                              1991 200q20v x 2
                              1985 4ksq 20vt project
                              1986 Coupe GT 10vt project
                              2006 Honda Ridgeline
                              1998 Honda VFR800FI

                              Comment

                              • raymor
                                S2Forum Maniac
                                • Sep 2003
                                • 597
                                • Country: Scotland

                                #45
                                Originally posted by auditude
                                Are these the same as what I've heard described as A8L rotors, spefically part number 4D0 615 301 A?

                                Thanks,

                                Ken
                                I'll need to check the receipt when I get in tonight...

                                Raymond
                                1997 A6 (C4)Q TDi http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=291269 - Sold
                                1987 CQ85RS
                                1994 S2 Avant- Gone
                                1991 V8 -Gone, but lives on in the TDi and CQ

                                Fintray Hillclimb - 33.20s
                                Doune Hillclimb - 55.02s
                                Forrestburn Hillclimb - 52.61

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