Big, bigger, biggest......turbo!

[Audi500HP]

The teory of course its the same for BOSCH, HITACHI, Magneti-Marelli, etc...
MAF tend to fail thats why Bosch replace the wire MAF to solid metal.

And Mitsubishi use KARMAN VORTEX, thats its an intresting MAF also, different.
You wanna learn phisics, go to some RX7 forums, they are damn crazy, I have seen Equations discussions about resistence and flex of some ceramic seals for their ****EL´s engines............. I like that

There is a guy who is a NASA engeneering that taste every seal for his ****el and put the info only mathematics equations........ A ****el its an engine that you hate or you love....... crazy.......

[whakiewes]

Audi500hp,

I don't understand exactly what your saying. From what I get is that the 3B/AAN uses a MAF and a MAP sensor? This would mean the ECU is programmed for both? So essentially, if I remove the MAF, the engine will still run?

I don't nessacarily agree with your theory. Every OEM company uses MAF's because it adapts. The element heats, then your airflow directly cools it. This also accounts in for cold weather, hot weather, different filter, different everything. There comes a point when you essentially 'blow' out the coil on the MAF. I have found that VERY few MAF's can make it past 30psi. So why are a good portion of all cars switching to MAP sensors? More so, why DO cars like Supra's and RX-7's have MAP sensors. The reason is tuning. Toyota and Mazda engineers knew that no matter how many blocks they put on the ECU, there is always a way around it. So to compensate for this, both RX-7's and Supras are superbly tuned from the factory, with only a hint of extra fuel. What happens when you build boost, manifold pressure rises, sending an altered signal, and the ECU adjusts. Thats why cars like Supra's have a boost cut. There isn't a built in boost guage, it cuts when the manifold pressure is to much for the 'considered' engine. HKS came out with the Boost Cut Eliminator to essentially void out the excess boost signal. I don't find more NA cars with MAP sensors, I actually see the complete opposite (this may be different thinkings between countries). Have you ever seen a 1000hp Skyline with MAF's? Ever see a high HP M3 Turbo using the MAF? High HP Nissan Silvia with a MAF? Name one high HP car still using a MAF? In one of my classes, this is how it was put...Carburators are the 60's, AFM's the 70's, MAF in 90's, and MAP in the 2000's. Now they have technology that runs solely off the 02 sensors and ECU that eliminates all sensors.

Remapping the ECU is done in order to achieve the best results. No car has to ever have this done to a point, but its always better without switching ECU's. Your stock ECU on stock software can only adjust its points within a certain percentage...some ECU's as much as 50%, some as low as 1%. A remap is done when you exceed those percentages, such as switching injectors, switching turbo, engine build, etc...A piggy back is an addition to that. I am a firm advocate that if you upgrade the car, the engine management is the most important part. I have always found though that turbo cars especially, you tend to upgrade constanly, so spending the money to go standalone is more than justified. I just don't trust my ECU to control my 20psi of boost, when it was built to control 14psi!

Another thing to keep in mind when talking about high HP NA cars, is that they REV. Honda Spoon S2000 turns what 11,000 rpms. Its sucking in probably the equivalent to a turbo car running 15-20psi.

I am definantly no engineer, nor a scientist. But from my experiences, I seem to have the complete opposite thought of you. I am not trying to argue with you, just expressing that I was taught the opposite...not saying you are wrong, just asking you to elaborate more. As I say, I am not a genius...just enjoy learning about engineering marvels

Wes

Also on a sidenote, I have never condoned using an Apex-i SAFC. It was built for the 'tuner' generation in mind, and isn't mean for anything more than looking cool. My experiences with them have been nothing but a vague piece of blue LCD. MAPECU is a completely different piece...its essentially a standalone piggy back...as is the SMT6, UNIChip, and more.

[Audi500HP]

WES: Complety Agree with you man: All the Big monster doesnt USE MAF systems, CAUSE they are using Standalone Systems with MAP, so they can remap always........... But for some car that go out of a factory, there is BIG MAF´s, if you want it........... EXAM Every Damn Porsche, Turbo, S, GT2, and FERRARI F40, they are not so bad? instead?

I you want BIG HP porpouse, there is no way to insist in something not programable, just go for a Standalone........ Im agree with you.

I have two friend that blows their RX-7 just by changes done in the exhaust......ufffff.... really, MAP doesnt compensate Changes UNDER the intake manifold........... how the ECU are gone note a different head, cams, etc? it cant..... please read about Injection........... it rules

[Chris M]

The RX-7's are funny cars. Having to compensate fueling for a change of exhaust and intake system so the engine doesn't run too lean and fu** up. They might be complictaed but i'd still have one anyday.

I've seen a 800hp R34 Skyline using the twin MAF's - The Nagasaki Auto GTR.
It also runs the well favoured Apex'i Power FC and commander. Its one of the fastest track cars in Japan. Power Fc seems like a good system to use and i've collected plenty of info on it for the future from some RX-7 forums too.

Cheers,
Chris

[Audi500HP]

WES: I forget the best example!!!! READ THIS: How you can compensate a system without a throttle like the new BMW with Valvetronic? If you measure the pressure in their Intakes its always 1 BAR............... the atmosferic pressure

MAP in this BMW engine will say always: 1 BAR, 1BAR, 1BAR, or maybe 760mmhg, jojoojo


yes the New BMW doesnt use throttle, they regulate the flow thanks their valvetronic system, that change the lift of their valves and also the advance.............. jojojojojojo...... BMW USE MAFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

[corrado]

Audi 500hp your arguments dont seem to be relevant to the topic. For a big turbo conversion you want to be precisse in your measurments.
MAF as said its a close estimation of the amount of air sucked by the engine. Not 100% the true value.
Now for the big turbo setups 600+hp you will most likley be upgrading the ecu.
Most stock ecu's dont have enough load points to make changes.
This brings MAF out of the picture and we are now dealign with MAP. True manifold pressure.
Now what you say about MAP telling the pressure but not the flow its true. When tuning an engine a wideband will be used. After tuning if a change is made in the setup (ie cams), you will have to log the O2 data again which will show you the changes the new flow numbers have made and you adjust it by monitoring the wideband, you up the injector cycle.
Now after this the map will function 100% how you have programed it as the map values are taken in account for the new flow numbers.
If one is after a 600+hp car than you need to be prepared to do loads of dyno time changing things as your variables change. The car will need alot more attention and owner must be in tune with the car.
Most guys who runs such high hp cars tune/part tune the cars themselfs.


I think those e-bay intercoolers are garbage. Most of them have crappy endtanks with very poor distribution. AVOID anything with square looking endtanks.
Cast endtanks most of the time are far superior, they are flow tested on that particluar core size. At the moment garret and sperco are at the top of the game when it comes to cores. Bar/plate seem to work slighlty better than tube/fin types, both have + &-. Important also is the area behind the intercooler, air needs to pass through the core and freely leave the other way. Use scoops to route air where possible.
I would chop the front bumper in order for the core not to be blocked depending on what the project is based. You should see my front:mischeif:

whakiewes my pc crashed and I lost all pics , I have some recent pics of the car whilst in the garage but its nothing to show .

[Billman]

@All and bit offtopic

Does somebody wants to give us free BOSCH motronic tuning lessons???

[whakiewes]

Corrado hit the nail on what I was trying to say. I was just trying to be to technical. Noone that knows how to tune Bosch Motronic is going to give lessons because the people that do are the same people that burn you your chips for $400. Why would they sacrifice their knowhow. I can tell you it is very simple to do, very hard to learn. There are about 100 codes, each with 100 inputs. What adjusts what is typically kept secret, and only discovered by trial and error. Do a search on google or something about Bosch Motronic tuning or something. I forgot what I looked up, but there was a lot of information about it!

Just for clarification sake, no argument intended...BMW's VANOS system has been around since 1991. It went to dual VANOS in some cars in 1996, and 1999+ all cars are dual vanos. What you are referring to Audiman500 is Valvetronic, where there is no more throttle body. They control the engine via opening and close the valves further...really weird and if you drive it, its rather sluggish. I have a new E90 3.0L, and its as smooth as butter, and very powerful...but its not raw power you would want. The Valvetronic setup doens't use a MAF, it uses a MAP sensor and the 02 sensor. The intake manifolds only use is to direct air to the appropriate cylinders. All this technology is why they can achieve 250hp with 228 duration cams, 10.5:1CR, and a single 2.25" exhaust.

So back on topic...I was thinking, and I think someone needs to try the T3/T04R. It flows 73lbs/min, has a T3 turbine, and is pretty insane. Should be good for 750hp, with the spool of a GT35R.

Wes

[Audi500HP]

Im agree with you Corrado, thats what I said, AFTER any change you will need to change your map, especially with a wide band 02 in a MAP system..... Flow meters its out of discussion in big modificated cars.
and wes I will correct the issue with the valvetronic, just a mistake with the name!

[jogi730]

I think someone needs to try the T3/T04R. It flows 73lbs/min, has a T3 turbine, and is pretty insane. Should be good for 750hp, with the spool of a GT35R.

Wes

Hmmmmmm!!!!!!
Now exactly what turbo is this Wes? Any links where to buy or to compressor maps?
Cheers
Chris

[Audi_CQ]

or shorten your rods to lower the weight, but lengthen the pistons to keep your rod/stroke the same.

If you use shorter rods your rod/stroke ratio will change(suffer )

You have a ton of room to bore the 5-cyl., so why does everyone stay at 81-82mm? It appears to me you have a good 2-4mm between each cylinder, so use that. Try to get the bore/stroke as square as possible, or squarer.

It's a 88mm borespace engine so you don't have much to gain in boring before cylinder wall gets too weak. About "square" engine: Why? In another post you want to use longer stroke.....

The head won't need much work, other than Ti retainers, valve springs, lifters, and some serious porting to match this.

If this isn't much work, what is?

Still not good enough, get custom oversized (1-1.5mm) valves

Because of the small bore, larger valves just brings the valve to close to the cyl. wall and not much gain in flow sadly.

and intake polishing...

Intake polishing isn't a good thing is it? Easier to get fuel "drop out" with a smooth surface. Shape is critical, polish not. Pay for the thing that works......

Just my 2 cents.....


Cheers,
Roger

[Audi_CQ]

Do you actually need a bigger westegate for Garret GT30R , 35 , 40 , 42 ?

No
A large turbo needs a lot of exhaust to deliver the goods so most of the exhaust from the engine goes through the turbo anyway. Most stress on the WG is a turbo with small exhaust side like std turbo or even more some of the quick spool(short lived?) hybrids. They generate a lot of heat and stress on the engine when really pushed for more then a short moment. Streetraces should be OK, but a long track day would be hard.

Cheers,
Roger

[auditude]

What is this krümmer list?

Great thread. Here's the Kruemmer list:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/audi20v_kruemmer/

[whakiewes]

Roger,

You exposed my weakness. Typing long thoughtful posts, without ever proofreading. You did correct me on several topics..such as intake polishing...this is wrong, its exhaust, with intake and exhaust PORTING. We have actually on some engines taken the head to special shops where they 'spiralize' the intake ports, creating a more clean path, but still providing more than enough turbulance for a perfect air/fuel mixture...think of rifle boring. I don't think I said what I meant to say about the rods. I have never been a fan of shortening rods on a whole, but I have done it before. One of the main reasons is because a highly respected professor was going over engine theory, rod/stroke length, and we were using my engine as an example. By shortening the rod length, lengthening the piston head, we were able to create a more 'ideal' engine. Honestly that was way above my head, and I usually leave that kind of stuff to the guys that do this for a living. A square engine is always the best...ask any engine builder. Oversquare is typically the preferred method to undersquare. What that is saying is that your bore should always exceed your stroke...but Audi sure as hell doesn't believe this...as I think all of their engines are undersquare. Some of the best engines in the world are square...2JZGTE, SR20DET, S50B30, and I know a lot more but Yuengling is taking its best on me. There are even more respected engines that are oversquare...not saying the the Audi engines aren't good, just stating theory.

What I was suggesting was based on my knowledge, or lack there of, of the 5-cyl. I didn't know the borespacing was 88mm, but even at this, if you went to 84mm bore, that would leave 4mm...on several engines I have built this would be lovely. I have one engine that has 2.0mm of spacing...yikes. It runs fine, no cracking, nothing. Maybe because you guys run so much boost, you need the extra security...not sure, just theory again. I threw out the idea of increasing the stroke because it seemed that the generally consensus was that 82mm was the max bore, so why not increase the stroke to gain a little extra power. As I looked more deeply, I found that this has already been done, on many occasions. Unfortunatly, no 3B's, a few AAN's, and a few 7A's were imported to the US...so our market niche is very small. A lot of headwork is when you decide to add solid lifters(either shim under or shim over are hard...shim under being the hardest), oversized valves, hollow cams (not as easy as just installing, try cracking a $3,500 cam), porting (not easy, but not hard to find someone reputable to do it), and maybe more. I guess I was looking at it from a standpoint that if your going to build a $10,000 engine, spending $1500 on the head is the EASY part of it. Sound good enough for me to BS my way out .

I appreciate your input, and as you can see I don't know much about the 20V 5-cyl, so while you guys get to read what I have done to other cars to get power, I get to learn what kind of a bitch its going to be for me to get power out of this car.

PM me for the T04R turbo, I can get you whatever information you want.

Going to get back to drinkin' with a lil' studyen'!

Wes

[corrado]

The turbo you are refering to Wes is an equivalent of the PT71 but with a T3 hotside instead of a straight T4 that its usually offered in?
In ball bearing trim it would be a killer, the compressor is big when you think about it . Similar to the GT40R specs, I will try compare the maps of these 2.

In regards to dialing out overlap when using cams, I'm pretty sure that the S2 head is the same as the vw 16v head only with one more cylinder. If Im right than one can easily use internal adjustable cam gears, Im not sure if these are available for the 20vT s2 but they are for the 16v engine. This would allow to use larger cams without loosing much boost. Again this would help the quest for the higher rpm/more flow.

We usually bore vw blocks to 83mm when boosting with no problems. Would someone mind giving some technical data on the block so we can reffer to for us non S2 owners .

We left out the gearbox/driveshafts/differentials in this discussion. This is a very important part of the package. What is the S2 drivetrain known to support? 5 gear 6 gear?
Driveshafts would most likey need to be uprated.

For those guys complaining about ecu choices, 034efi is a very good ecu and I have seen great results when used on the 5 cyl 20v. The founders of it are also 5cyl audi owners . Check motorgeek for more info.

Some guy mentioned knock control not being an option on some ecu's. Personally I would be better without it, instead id have a wideband hooked to the car all the time and keep my ears open for any wired noises but thats just me. Knock control is mainly used on factory cars as a fail safe, when you get to a high level of tuning i dont think its needed as long as you have other means of measurments. If im not mistaken 034efi has the knock control option.

I always had sympathy for the 5 cyl 20v S2, you have one more than us