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  • A Bit Of Theory For Discussion

    One of my best mates wrote this for a BMW site, I thought it was general enough to apply to our cars and thought it could spark some good discussion on the topic. It's geared toward naturally aspirated engines. I'm sure my mate would love to hear more opinions on the subject, so feel free to offer yours and let him know whatcha think!



    It's a given that engine tuning has a lot to do with manipulating the
    stream of intake charge. But to understand this in the right light I think
    it's important to see the intake charge simply as a column of air. This
    column of air has weight, and when you add velocity you have inertia.
    Using this inertia to your advantage is the goal.

    Cam timing, duration, lift, compression ratio, port dimensions, and RPM
    are all used to manipulate inertia associated with that column of air.
    Keep in mind it can't start and stop instantaneously, it sort of acts
    elastically. We have to make compromises and design the intake system to
    focus all of these factors to create the best cylinder filling within a
    certain RPM range. Things like VANOS and variable valve lift go a long way
    to broaden this range but there is always a compromise to some extent.

    When everything is perfect, flow into the cylinder stops moving just as
    the intake valve shuts having filled the cylinder as much as possible
    before the flow reverses. But when it does close it would be nice if that
    column of air, still in the intake track, actually maintained some of it's
    velocity and 'packed up' behind the intake valve, ready for the next time
    it opens.

    When this process is optimized, air pressure behind the valve peaks just
    as the valve begins to open. When it does open, you get this surge of air
    into the cylinder. This surge of pressure on a naturally aspirated engine
    is known as inertia supercharging and it is very important. When you think
    about how velocity affects weight, creating inertia, you can begin to
    understand how RPM is involved with coming 'on cam'.

    You'll hear people talk about the importance of port velocity and it's
    effect on inertia supercharging. Without velocity, you don't have inertia
    and you loose that surge of air. Super oversized ports will not have the
    port velocity necessary to make good use of inertia supercharging. This is
    why some may see a loss of torque at low/mid RPM's after a big valve/port
    modification. If they don't have the cylinder filling requirements its
    just not going build the velocity needed to be effective.

    So port dimensions affect port velocities, which in turn affects cylinder
    filling but is controlled by valve timing and duration. RPM does its part
    on port velocity and dictates when those cam specs are optimum.
    Compression is the driver and what creates the 'pull'. At some point
    everything will be maximized and for a brief period, the engine will be,
    as they say, "on the cam".
    Painfully said goodbye to my baby....

    2001 A4
    Silver with black leather, Symphony, sport package, S4 bumper and wheels

  • #2
    translation for us turbo owners:


    "inertial supercharging": who cares, we have turbos for that, and they make real boost

    "engine being on cam": yeah, I know what you mean, we call that being "on full boost"


    '98 Silver Grey 2.7T S4, dual 2.75" turbo back exhaust with no cats, FMIC, BIG injectors, 10 Bar motorsport fuel pump, modded RS4 turbos, tubular exhaust manifolds, custom intakes, RS4 MAF, Bilstein PSS9, H&R ARBs, 19" BBS CH, custom remap, 511 BHP/505ft-lbs

    www.MRCTuning.com
    info@MRCTuning.com
    Workshop Directions

    Comment


    • #3
      Mik, bear in mind you started this, so just be prepared to the consequences

      I need to make my son sleep, now. Will hopefully be back in half an hour or so....

      Topic isn't simple so answers will neider be simple nor quick.

      Get ready, at the end, to receive some numbers to calculate intake dimensioning for the use of pressure waves and resonant effect for "natural supercharging".
      Forced induction engine will not benefit of this as much as NA units.... will discuss this later on.




      Marco

      Comment


      • #4
        Shall I transcribe the entinre contents of a book I have in my bookcase...Scientific design of intake and exhaust system by Smith? Great read (read it through twice!) but puts you to sleep sometimes too! All stuff from the '60s but most of the theory is still very sound!
        1995 S2 Avant with some upgrades

        Designun Limited....
        Aerospace, Space and Motorsport Design Consultancy and hardware supply.

        Comment


        • #5
          Well, I sort of intended to provoke some technical discussion, possibly comparing that theory to others, or discussing this in relation to turbo vs non-turbo, or even expanding on this. I just find this sort of stuff interesting and we like talking about it. So if you want to use this as a springboard for a flame-fest I guess it's your choice, but that wasn't my intention....
          Painfully said goodbye to my baby....

          2001 A4
          Silver with black leather, Symphony, sport package, S4 bumper and wheels

          Comment


          • #6
            My comment wasn't a dig at all, Mik. I think you may have initiated essays of text from Marco! LOL! I am personally looking forward to the read! I find it hard to put some stuff in laymans terms! My book doesn't even cover turbos as I don't think they had been invented when the text was first written (but my studies did!)!
            1995 S2 Avant with some upgrades

            Designun Limited....
            Aerospace, Space and Motorsport Design Consultancy and hardware supply.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Lee
              Scientific design of intake and exhaust system by Smith?
              I got that book :nana:
              S2 Avant......fully loaded :rock: :bow: Slipper Wagons Rule !!!!!

              Comment


              • #8
                Yeah, but have you read it yet Paul or is it just a funky book end to hold up your decorating books??
                :nana: :nana:
                1995 S2 Avant with some upgrades

                Designun Limited....
                Aerospace, Space and Motorsport Design Consultancy and hardware supply.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Oh dear - what have you started now ? :eek2:

                  All this theory is way too close to the new year for my liking... Marco will lose us on the 2nd paragraph with particle physics or fluid dynamics or some other black art !!!

                  I love the way books like Corky Bell's Maximum Boost simplify a lot of scary stuff into tangible easy to capture terms (sometimes with a little error but these are good rules of thumb).

                  My background is electronic systems (h/w and s/w) and telecomms/datacomms stuff nowadays so the wonders of airflow calculations and such are a mystery to me...

                  If Marco, or anyone, can answer these questions - with simple calculations to prove it - we could all learn a lot.

                  1. Let's say I'm considering going for a 5-pot 2.5L conversion (the AEL engine) - what is the expected performance limit on a K24, RS2 or bigger turbo with that engine - using sensible boost values (max 1.4, 1.6 and 1.8 bar respectively for sake of argument) ? Assume we use an RS2 exhaust manifold in all cases.

                  2. I'd like as much torque available from low revs so how do I calculate the trade-off between say a K24 and RS2 turbo? Will a K24 have enough puff at 7000rpm in the 2.5 engine ? My gut feel would be NO - but I have no way to prove it ! So I think the RS2 turbo would be a good bet - as long as lag can be defeated properly. Who can talk me thru the compressor maps with the answer on this ?

                  3. How do I determine which is the best camshaft choice for the AEL engine - for max torque down low, max power up top or the best of both worlds. Heck - what about considerations for compression ratio - dunno if the AEL engine has comparable CR to the ABY or ADU. That must make an impact on knock limits etc etc

                  4. Lets say I throw a desire for a supercharger into the equation (to improve torque down low and counteract the lag effects of a larger turbo). How on earth does one select the right supercharger ? I would assume that mechanical boost control on the supercharger would be the simplest way forward. Custom mapping would of course be needed on such a setup to keep the ECU happy about increased manifold pressure at low/moderate throttle angles. Would the blower from (say) a G60 Golf/Corrado be suitable or would a larger item from a Mercedes be more appropriate ? Roughly how much power will a supercharger sap from the engine ?

                  Ah hell - so many questions - I'm tempted to delete this nonsense now, but what the hey !

                  This is going to be painful debating and understanding...


                  Cheers,

                  Paul
                  Paul Nugent
                  Webmaster http://S2central.net
                  Administrator http://S2forum.com

                  1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                  2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                  2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                  Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                  There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Ok guys, my answer was of course humouristic. Hope you got it the right way. I don't intend to teach anything to anybody 'cos still have to learn a lot myself. Even assuming I know something right, this also come mainly with the teaching of some much more aknowledged guy than me, through the reading of engeneering but also much more practical technical books.

                    The fact is I love mechanics but I hate to take stuff "as is" without understanding the functioning. This caused me to dig a lot into theory in many engine related topics (but this doesn't mean I got it right ) and also caused another thing:
                    when thecnical questions happen to come, I tend to become a little .....prolific and theoretical so that even some of my friends sometimes are afraid to ask .

                    Anyway, if topic is of interest I might try to give my contribution.


                    Marco

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      yeah Marco - i'd love to hear your thougts one this... actually I think you are already making plans for a supercharger on your car - so was curious how you selected the right one.

                      Didn't Lancia do this with an Evolution of the wonderful Integrale such that it is both supercharged and turbocharged for the best of both worlds - maybe I'm confused ?


                      Paul
                      Paul Nugent
                      Webmaster http://S2central.net
                      Administrator http://S2forum.com

                      1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                      2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                      2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                      Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                      There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by S2central.net
                        Didn't Lancia do this with an Evolution of the wonderful Integrale such that it is both supercharged and turbocharged for the best of both worlds - maybe I'm confused ?
                        That unit had inlet and exhaust valves diagonally opposed right? Abslutely mental and a nightmare to get the plumbing installed. Theory was that swirling would be much better if diagonal ports were paired rather than the adjacent ones. Need to look up which engine it was but I am sure you're right with the Lancia unit! Inlet was above the engine and there were two exhaust amnifolds for the inline engine. I'll try to dig out a cutaway photo as I have one in a book somewhere on my bookshelf in work! What the hell are all my engine books doing in work!!
                        1995 S2 Avant with some upgrades

                        Designun Limited....
                        Aerospace, Space and Motorsport Design Consultancy and hardware supply.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Pisobiker
                          Anyway, if topic is of interest I might try to give my contribution.
                          Absolutely. I was looking forward to it. You write technical things in these forums better than I can!!
                          1995 S2 Avant with some upgrades

                          Designun Limited....
                          Aerospace, Space and Motorsport Design Consultancy and hardware supply.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            it was the S4 variant of delta, pretty much the original which the integrale evolved from, heres a link about one that was for sale at walkers garage in northallerton a couple of years back, actually saw it just after it had been sold, awesome, all from a 1.8 remember!!
                            some arab rang them up and bought it without even seeing it, wanted a car to 'play' in on a w/end!!

                            link

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lee
                              ..... Need to look up which engine it was but I am sure you're right with the Lancia unit! ......
                              Oh yeah the MITHYCAL Delta S4
                              used a Roots type blower in parallel with the turbocharger.

                              Following a couple of pics:
                              Attached Files

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