ABY engine - How to advance 6 degrees in timing?

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  • Piu
    S2Forum Hobbyist
    • Jun 2006
    • 16
    • Country: Brazil

    #1

    ABY engine - How to advance 6 degrees in timing?

    I have a 1994 saloon 4 door S2 with ABY engine.
    Is there a easy, or better explaining, a mechanical way to advance the ignition timing by about 6 degrees, without remaping ECU?

    I live in Brazil and here we have 3 main fuels at gas stations.
    Regular 88 octane gasoline at about US$1,00 per litre, wich doesnt perform well in S2.
    Premium 98 octane gasoline at about U$1,80 per litre, wich obtain full performance from car, but is very expensive to maintain tehe tank fullfilled.
    Alchool (not methanol), wich have a octane rating equivalence of 104 octane, very cheap, about US$0,50 per litre, and easily found in any gas station.

    All vehicles with aftermarket turbochargers here in Brazil uses this alchool as fuel, but to be effective, the ignition timing should be advanced to about 15 degrees at idle and about 28~30 degrees at wot in high RPMs to take full advantage of fuel. In moderate boost levels, until 15 psi os boost, 6 degrees of advance in entire timing map is effective to have a close to ideal timing map using alchool as fuel.
    On same boost level, alchool gives about 15% more power than gasoline, and need a higher compression ratio in aspirated engines, but in gasoline original turbocharged engines like ABY, it give us a possibility to increase the boost level about 30% without detonation problems, and giving us the correspondent gain in power.
    Alchool have a lower calorific power than gasoline for same mass, a increase of 30~35% in injected fuel is necessary. To increase the fuel injected, we are used to measure the injectors rate and rework the injector in eletroerosion machines or even drill the tip if injectors with dremel or another hand-driller until the desired rate be achieved.
    The fuel pump have also to be replaced, but I can find Bosch pumps made exclusively to work with alchool (Alchool corrodes the standard pumps).

    For the advance in timing, we are used to repositioning the sensor in toothed well when this wheel is at crank pulley, or rework the wheel to match the new timing requirements. ECU remaping here in Brazil is a very hazardous work, because we have no professionals skilled at all, and frequently have to test various chips copied from foreign tuners that flies in friend's cars, not even being a easy work, reinforcing the "mechanical" way to advance the timing. The more professionals ECU tuners are too expensive, sometimes they charge over U$$500,00 to remap a chip, if there is no available chip in their library.

    I bought the S2 few weeks ago and have no experience with this engine. I need someone more experienced to give-me some direction to follow.
    If there is a way to make this rework in timing of ABY engine, I can make the fuel conversion and run with the pocket a little more full than the tank of my new toy.
    Excuse-me my poor english, but if any point that no becomes well explained, ask and I can try to pass the details.
    Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me.
  • Billman
    S2Forum Freak
    • Nov 2004
    • 4129

    #2
    -Error-
    Go Holset or Go RS4

    Comment

    • S2central.net
      Retired OG Mod
      • Jul 2003
      • 16590
      • Country: Northern Ireland

      #3
      There is absolutely no mechanical means to adjust ignition timing on the ECU - it is all controlled by software in the ECU.

      The only way to solve this problem is have the ECU remapped (for ignition and fuel) by an experienced Motronic tuner - preferably one with some knowledge of the S2.

      I personally really don't like the sound of modifications like taking a dremel to fuel injectors - that isn't tuning in my opinion - just butchery !

      In my opinion $500 is not a lot of money to spend on correct Motronic tuning for you car - especially when you think of the fuel savings.

      This is all assuming that its OK to run the S2 100% on 'alcohol' - do you know exactly what chemicals are in that fuel ?


      Paul

      Paul
      Paul Nugent
      Webmaster http://S2central.net
      Administrator http://S2forum.com

      1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
      2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
      2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

      Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

      There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

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      • Baldy
        S2Forum Addict
        • Jun 2004
        • 469
        • Home: Sikkim Current: British Antarctic Territory

        #4
        would it not be more practical to blend the ethanol with the regular unleaded like an octane booster to increase the octane to somewhere in the 90's?

        seems like a better idea than butchering the injectors and should still work out cheaper
        Nautic Blue UR-Quattro RS2spec ABY20v kkk26/27 hybrid,Bremsport Brake Kit n some other Gubbins.water injection. Mihnea tuned Management The old Bus
        0-60 4.9
        1/4mile 13.5

        Comment

        • porkkis
          S2Forum Extremist
          • Aug 2003
          • 1994
          • Country: Finland

          #5
          Really there is a way, but I won't tell it as the idea of manipulating the system that way is so bad. Sorry.
          -

          Comment

          • Ski
            S2Forum Fiend
            • Jan 2004
            • 2591
            • Home: Poland Current: United Kingdom

            #6
            COOOL alchohol at any gas station. Isnt there a hygine problem with everyone drinking from same pump?
            ABY Coupe
            sigpic

            Comment

            • Jon441cc
              S2Forum Fiend
              • Dec 2005
              • 2061
              • Country: United Kingdom

              #7
              Originally posted by Ski
              COOOL alchohol at any gas station. Isnt there a hygine problem with everyone drinking from same pump?

              That reminds me of chap a few years back who was addicted to Petrol, he was banned from numerous petrol stations, as he was drinking fom the pumps.
              sigpic

              Comment

              • newsh
                S2Forum Obsessed
                • Aug 2003
                • 16226
                • Country: United Kingdom

                #8
                I would guess you could move the TDC timing pin on the flywheel and the Hall sender 6 degrees advanced. The ECU would be none the wiser.

                S2 Coupe 3B Project


                Ur quattro restoration

                S2 Avant

                Boost is the new rock and roll!
                sigpic

                Comment

                • Piu
                  S2Forum Hobbyist
                  • Jun 2006
                  • 16
                  • Country: Brazil

                  #9
                  Originally posted by S2central.net
                  There is absolutely no mechanical means to adjust ignition timing on the ECU - it is all controlled by software in the ECU.

                  The only way to solve this problem is have the ECU remapped (for ignition and fuel) by an experienced Motronic tuner - preferably one with some knowledge of the S2.

                  I personally really don't like the sound of modifications like taking a dremel to fuel injectors - that isn't tuning in my opinion - just butchery !

                  In my opinion $500 is not a lot of money to spend on correct Motronic tuning for you car - especially when you think of the fuel savings.

                  This is all assuming that its OK to run the S2 100% on 'alcohol' - do you know exactly what chemicals are in that fuel ?


                  Paul

                  Paul
                  Hi Paul.
                  In fact, the politically correct way to do the alcohol conversion is remap the ECU for timing and fuel, I know. But I speak by experience, I did myself many conversions, on my and friend's cars and we never had any problems just changing the injectors and advancing timing by 6 degrees.
                  When we can't find the right size injectors to match the 35% higher flux, we take the original and rework it carefully to not loose the spray pattern. It can sound a bit ogrish, but the final result is perfectly achieved. I can post some pictures of injectors reworked of right and wrong way to people see I'm not talking about foolness.

                  Here in Brazil I doubt be possible to find more than 50 exemplars of S2, so is very difficult, if not impossible to find a skilled ECU tuner in this car. To not have my toy made a guinea pig, I prefer to make the conversion that I know works.

                  The alcohol I'm talking about is the "official" fuel in Brazil. It is available in any gas station by one sixth of price of 98 octane gas. In fact, by law, any gasoline sold in Brazil has to have 25% of alcohol in this composition to lower the emissions of the car.
                  At late 80's 90% of all cars produced in Brazil (not the destined for export) was 100% alcohol. Only 10% was destined to use standard gasoline. In mid 90's the gasoline price almost equalized with alcohol price and the importation os cars made outside of Brazil had this import fees lowered, this rewarmed the production of gasoline and the total number of original gasoline and alcohol was about 50% each.
                  But for the performance entusiasts like us, the use of alcohol only has benefits. It's cheaper than gas, have octane rate about 104 or more, reaching 110 sometimes if you can get the "special" not pump anidride alcohol. The EGT is lower than gasoline. My old vectra turbo had 900 degrees at WOT with gas, and 850 with alcohol, at 15psi of boost.
                  The alcohol does not contaminate the oil in engine. The oil last twice than a equivalent gas engine. The carbonization in chambers and piston crown is very small when comparated with gas. The alcohol has more latent heat, so the mixture temp goes down when it's formed in intake, increasing his density and increasing the VE of cylinder.
                  For all this advantages, all performance cars uses alcohol in Brazil.

                  By the way, since 2002, all cars made in Brazil are "FlexFuel", it means it can have the tank filled with any proportion of gas and alcohol, from 100% of gas until 100% alcohol.
                  Althoug sound weird convert the S2 to 100% alcohol, it's a very common practice here.

                  Comment

                  • Piu
                    S2Forum Hobbyist
                    • Jun 2006
                    • 16
                    • Country: Brazil

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Baldy
                    would it not be more practical to blend the ethanol with the regular unleaded like an octane booster to increase the octane to somewhere in the 90's?

                    seems like a better idea than butchering the injectors and should still work out cheaper
                    Mixing ethanol with gas can increase the octane rating, but will need the resizing of injectors, and will ever need the tank to be fullfilled to have the correct proportion in blend. Not aways we have the pocket full to fill the tank to limit, eh, eh, eh...

                    Comment

                    • Piu
                      S2Forum Hobbyist
                      • Jun 2006
                      • 16
                      • Country: Brazil

                      #11
                      Originally posted by porkkis
                      Really there is a way, but I won't tell it as the idea of manipulating the system that way is so bad. Sorry.
                      Please, doesnt sound to bad manipulate the signal.... Unichip works that way and nobody say it doesn't work....
                      Please, help a new friend needing help

                      Comment

                      • Piu
                        S2Forum Hobbyist
                        • Jun 2006
                        • 16
                        • Country: Brazil

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Ski
                        COOOL alchohol at any gas station. Isnt there a hygine problem with everyone drinking from same pump?
                        AHUAHAHAHUHHA!!!!
                        In fact, at mid 90's the alcohol production have been lowered, and the government tried to mix methanol in gasoline to maintain the quantity available to public. But methanol is very toxic and happened some accidents with gas pump operators becoming blind by intoxication.
                        Ironically, the government vehiculed some publicity at TV with Emmerson Fittipaldi saying the methanol wasn't the responsible, since his Indy car used pure methanol as fuel and never nobody was intoxicated...

                        Comment

                        • Piu
                          S2Forum Hobbyist
                          • Jun 2006
                          • 16
                          • Country: Brazil

                          #13
                          Originally posted by newsh
                          I would guess you could move the TDC timing pin on the flywheel and the Hall sender 6 degrees advanced. The ECU would be none the wiser.
                          You toke the idea!
                          The RPM sensor in ABY is Hall? Is it sending 5 pulses per revolution of crank? Or is this sensor a 60-2 teeth like others motronics?
                          All I need in begin is to advance a little all the timing curve. After that, I can take some accelerations tests and maybe discover a better point to leave the timing. It will be close to ideal custom remap, at least better than run with timing too retarded.

                          Comment

                          • Piu
                            S2Forum Hobbyist
                            • Jun 2006
                            • 16
                            • Country: Brazil

                            #14
                            I received some PM's asking about details about alcohol conversion.
                            To have a 100% alcohol converted we need to make few simple tasks:
                            1- Replace the Fuel pump. As we need more volume than gasoline because of lower calorific power from ethanol, a higher volume pump must be used. Also the pump need to be corrosion resistant. here in Brazil we have 3 choices in Bosch line of specific alcohol pumps. The 0.580.454.041 is internal tank mounted and is original in FlexFuel cars. This pump is externally same as Bosch model original in 96 to 00 Opel Vectra. The 0.580.454.008 is the replacement found in auto parts stores. This 2 models works at 4 bar nominal and can feed about 300HP in alcohol engines.
                            The third option is an external pump model 0.580.464.065, "the gray". This pump is more powerful than the 2 previous models, but to be effective, need an auxiliary pump mounted inside the tank to take the fuel from tank to the external pump. It can feed a 400hp engine alone, or more with the original pump inside the tank and it outside.

                            2- The fuel lines need to be checked, and any metal other than stainless need to be replaced. The lines can be rubber from tank to fuel rail and the fuel rail need to be plastic or stainless steel. My '99 passat V6 already have the fuel rail in stainless steel, and the S2 also is, so it's an advantage since not need to rework this components.

                            3- the injectors need to be increased in 30-35%. Better get a set of new injectors with desired flow, but many times the original injectors are reworked

                            4- The timing of ignition need to be advanced. Most of times, a 6 degrees advance is OK, but higher compression ratio (11:1 and more) should be carefully studied. With lower compression ratio, used in high boost applications (over 28psi) I have seen people using 20 degrees at idle with 7:1CR.

                            5- The canister is eliminated.

                            6- Have to be added a "cold start kit". Nothing more than a small (1 liter) reservoir of gasoline with a small pump and a push bottom to inject a small baffle of gasoline in intake prior to start the engine. An adittional solenoid is need in case of turbocharged engine, to have not the resorvoir exploded with the pressure of intake coming in the reservoir. This kit is easily found here for US$20,00.

                            This start is needed aways the ambient temp drop to below 20ºC. One touch in button is enough to have the engine started and a 3 to 5 min at idle is enough to warm the engine and have the car usable.
                            Last edited by Piu; 11 July 2006, 03:39.

                            Comment

                            • S2central.net
                              Retired OG Mod
                              • Jul 2003
                              • 16590
                              • Country: Northern Ireland

                              #15
                              I'm really against doing this cos of the risk of engine damage, but yes in theory you could reposition the timing points for the crankshaft and camshaft in order to provide a 6 degree overall timing advance.

                              I could provide you with a chip for that single modification in software if you are interested... It won't cost you much but it will save you the grief of mechanically screwing around with timing points - I love the S2 too much to let you do that

                              FYI - search the forum for posts about my ABY 'homefries' - a generic chip upgrade I have some years of success with across the forum and beyond. I know enough to help you customise the chips in your car remotely... Lets keep boost standard for now !!!

                              Send me a private message (PM) if interested...


                              Paul
                              Paul Nugent
                              Webmaster http://S2central.net
                              Administrator http://S2forum.com

                              1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                              2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                              2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                              Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                              There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

                              Comment

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