How much power/torque is "enough"?

[dan_b]

The standard S2 had what, 220/230Bhp? That made it a pretty impressive performer for its time. Lots of people have mods now to 270ish, and there seem to be plenty of >300 cars around here.

I took mine out last night for one of those "drive just for the hell of it" runs and, **** me, I think I'd forgotten just how quick my S2 really is. Keep it on-boost and it goes like a bat out of hell That was one short-lived gallon of Optimax!

Anyway, that got me thinking.
Lots of people here have modded their cars, some quite significantly in the engine department. However, when does that become "enough"? When does it stop making much difference in usable performance, and become numbers just for the hell of it? When do other factors become significantly more important, like braking, suspension, tyres etc? Or, when do people simply feel that they don't "need" any more power?

Do engine mods have more "allure" simply becuase it sounds more "exciting" to say that you've got 400BHP, when actually having some 6-pots but "only" 280BHP will give you a faster car over a journey?

When do people say "enough, I've got plenty power, more would be a waste of money, I couldn't possibly want any more, the car is quick enough"?!

[Ski]

Im wondering the same myself as im trying to plan which turbo to buy (rs2 one or go for the big stuff).

To be honest i'm happy with my standard s2's performance (excluding brakes).. but im a boy racer and i need the nice whistling sound that glen introduced me to over this weekend and off course just to say "its not standard" is a huge bonus for me as the worse car u can ever have.. is not a french one.. its a standard one! (although in this case the standard s2 rocks... but could rock more).

so back to original question that dan_b raised.. when does bhp turn into money waste?

[Minnsy]

Used to live in London - standard set up was more than adequate - and when I did go outside of town and play on some green lanes etc, then the difference was so extreme I would say to myself that I would never need more power (Kim Collins on a couple of times tried to sell me an MTM stage 1 - kept on saying the car would be more driveable. what do you mean, driveable...?)

Then moved to countryside. Got used to power. Decided on getting a Mr Nugent special edition super home fry...

And indeed the car is more driveable. It is more tractable. Has more urge in the right places. It is such a hoot! The increase in acceleration when you need it is fantastic. (Off the line - don't know, don't care - dumping the clutch at 4.5k is not what the S2 is all about.)

However, and as others will also say, you will also have to slow down at some stage, ideally with no help from mother nature, or obstacles erected by the department of transport. With this in mind a few quid spent on brakes might be a good idea.

As to handling, Mr Nugent advised the fitting of RS2 ARBs - so the increase in power might be realised whilst not just in a straight line.. Fantastic improvement in handling. Well worth it.

So go get a home fry. But also get the other bits and pieces that make the power increase manageable and usageable.

The last bit of the equation is down to driver skill...(unfortunately there are no bolt on bits from Halfords, or VAG parts that can improve this part of the equation, and I am no 'Stig').

So as it stands, no more power for me! Money better spent on making power more useable (and home decoration to keep my good lady happy!)

Cheers

D

[Vagsport]

There is a theoretical maximum as far as power / torque are concerned. It's relatively cheap to obtain 275PS from the stock engine, 300 - 350PS gets quite expensive, 450 verrrrry expensive. Then you have to decide if the extra £££'s are worth the performance; increasing from 450 - 470PS, a gain of some 20PS, won't make a noticeable difference in accelleration, you have reached your theoretical maximum. This is when weight loss will make a marked difference in terms of acelleration, and torque / gearing are more likely to make a difference in terms of max. speed.

Siena

[dan_b]

The other problem is this place, it's evil, it constantly makes you think of "upgrades"

Is there a factor also of the gearing? The car's gearing was designed to give good performance with 230ish in mind. If you start pumping 400 through it, you're going to want/need to change the gearing at some point to exploit the extra power?

I'd love to see Stig take a few S2s around the Top Gear test track - a standard one, and some of the more interesting ones that lurk here.

[S2central.net]

For me personally - the chip upgrade to ~280bhp and ~430Nm on an otherwise stock engine is plenty enough for road use. I'd like to hit 300bhp and 450Nm with some little mechanical changes and better exhaust systems etc, but I wouldn't want to sacrifice the smooth driveability, better gas mileage and low lag of this setup on the K24 for everyday road use. This puts plenty enough stress on the standard brakes & running gear. A brake upgrade is mandatory really...

Trouble is - power is corrupting - if you get a ride in something like MarkH's ~400bhp monster you really get a taste for just how blindingly fast these cars can be when you spend shed loads of money in them (in a shed) and you think about such mods... until you price it all up !

I personally prefer minimal lag and as much torque as possible from low revs - as long there is enough oomf at the top end for spirited driving.

The RS2 upgrade (with 7A or ADU cam and RS2 manifold as a minimum), mapped properly with a stiffer WG spring (reducing lag) is probably the best comprimise between a chipped ABY (280bhp) and full custom monster at 400bhp. The spec is about halfway between the two. The mapped RS2 route will give max torque of 500Nm (or more of you like) coming in around 3000-3500rpm, so the low end tractability suffers a little bit... But when full boost comes in this conversion really pushes you back into the seat.

Its not at all obvious where you can legally use all this new found power to its full potential in the UK - such is the state of this big brother nation with cameras everywhere. Not that I condone speeding or dangerous driving, but the safety margin for overtaking or merging into traffic in the S2 when properly chipped in whatever form is definitely worth having.

If money is no object or you want bragging rights down the pub then by all means go for the monster conversion. If not then some more thought on how you drive and what you want from such a conversion is required...

Just my tuppence worth...

Paul

[KramRS2]

I think that all depends on where you live.
If I lived in London, or wherever place in England, I probably would make modifications to my car in the way I could be the king of track days (because, at least is the impression by distant, there is a lot of then there). Big big brakes, suspensions, may be hidden rollcages, etc.
Here in Brasil there are few track days. But the country is Huge (there are states that are bigger than the western europe, and there are 24 of them). Every little travel has at least 200km. So, our focus is on high-speed acceleration, from 200km/h (125mph) to nowhere.
We have an Audi S Club, and the dream of all is to beat those monsters RS4 (there are two now with 550hp kit from Oettinger and monster Movit brakes). We make meets with about 30 cars, and we drive in average speed of over 200km/h. We have many speed cameras (Gatso like), but the roads are so long that it is virtually impossible to keep control over them all. It is not so relaxed as Italy or France (at least likes they were when I drove there one year ago), but there are stretches where we can drive as fast as the car can for ten-fifteen minutes.

Ok, after this little explanation, 650hp and 1000Nm of torque is enough for me.

[AnLe]

When you have been in 500+ s2 sliding from torq in tarmac and you
sit down back to your 280ish it just feels like another supernova..

There is no enough.. its the same if you ask for sailing people why..
btw: Finnish Supernova
Fjord

[S2central.net]

Yes its all relative...
That mega curve in blue is fine if you drive above 4500rpm all the time !

What are these red and blue curves for ?

Looks a power plot but its impossible to read scales.

Diff'rent strokes for different folks huh !!!


Paul

[porkkis]

Supernova curves are for a 600hp/600Nm FWD Opel Corsa (Vauxhall Nova). Look few directories up for images.

Too much is never enough?

[Michel]

Its when you realise that the money you have spent upgrading the car could have been spent on getting another sports car..like a Caterham Seven...

I know, I know nothing like having a single car to do both, but its still a big heavy car with an big lump hanging in front of the front wheels.

Admittedly I drive th S2 in London so big power is not a huge issue, but when I do go out on the road, even as standard its not too shabby...

If I want to go 'for a drive' I'm sorry but the S2 is not the car I'd choose for ultimate driving pleasure. I would be somehting with less power and less grip but more handling....

[Stick Insect]

As was mentioned the Audi Coupe was not for the traffic light Grand Prix. A Citroen Saxo or a Caterham is more suited. The Couipe was very much a Grand tourer in the old meaning of the word. It is meant for covering a lot of ground (or countries) comfortably and with the minimum of hassle.

If it is dark and your headlamps don't light up the road 100 feet ahead 50 Bhp is too much.

The 1948 Morris Minor had nickel plated 5 inch headlamps. on dip the O/S filament would work at 35 Watts the N/s did not have a dip filamant at all.
On full beam, both filaments would light up at 42 watts. 27.5 BHP was quite enough for these headlamps. Think yourself lucky you have even the poor Audi headlamps.

When a car travels at 70 Mph it only requires about 20-30 Bhp to keep cruising.

A law of diminishing returns comes into play. You need to plot a graph showing performance gained for the power increase versus cost/effort involved. Your answer is quickly found I feel.

Good handling/ predictable brakes/ low down grunt is what makes a car driveable.

Walter Rohl had an Audi which was twitchy, had good brakes and no low down Grunt. It went well but he had a shower when he got out of it.

The Metro Turbo had a T3 Turbo which was far too large it should have had the T2 I feel. It had lag like there was no tomorrow and it used to trash gearboxes. This is not reliable motoring. I bulit one for a Girlfriend which had 130BHP. She never went over 2000 RPM and so it was no use.

The standard ECU chip was designed to provide a reasonable all round performance and maintain certain EEC economy tests 56Mph etc.

Minhea and the other Chip magicians can make the car more driveable as well as making it fast. I bet you'd be surprised at the difference.

If your S2 has done 100K I bet your bushes need looking at very carefully.

A smooth car is a more satisfying drive than a rocketship with an on/off loud pedal. It's still good to have biiiiig power though.

[Sidspud]

A smooth car is a more satisfying drive than a rocketship with an on/off loud pedal. It's still good to have biiiiig power though.

I think this says it all. The standard car is great to drive. A car chipped to 280ish is even better and relatively inexpensive. If you can afford it then go for an RS2 turbo. If you've just robbed a bank and have nothing better to spend your ill gotten gains on then go for crazy horses!

The problem is, that once you start you just want more! I've not long had mine chipped. It is a fantastic upgrade! But I'm in the process of buying all the bits required for a full on RS2 upgrade - Turbo, IM, EM, injectors and a remap. I plan on stopping there, but I might find that in another 9 months I'm hungry for more.

I live out in the sticks so it is very easy for me to find an empty stretch of road and bury the loud pedal. Its different if you live in a city where the only places you can floor it are crawling with gatsos. If I lived in London, I'd stick with either standard or chipped, but because I can use all of the power regularly, I want more. The 350bhp I intend to get will be more than enough to blow away the millions of scoobies and Octavia VRs' that clog the roads around my way. It'll also scare the crap out of the local drug dealers in their Evos, although they probably have guns so I might try and avoid that confrontation.:eek2:

And as for the BMW drivers in their 330ds, they can all just eat my exhaust fumes!

[Paulm]

HEY not all evo owners r drug dealers

[Sidspud]

Present company excepted of course.

Actually, round my way there are one or two Evos that are definately bought using ill gotten gains. There are another couple that are driven by to$$ers who think they own the road, and then there are a couple that are driven by Sunday drivers.

Its probably the same with most types of cars, but the Evo stands out a bit more than most.

My appologies if I have offended any Evo drivers or any potential Evo drivers. Especially those that live 'round my way and carry guns!