S2 will only boost at 3,500 rpm?

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  • macspring
    S2Forum Zealot
    • Mar 2005
    • 6371
    • Home: Ireland Current: Wallis & Futuna

    #1

    S2 will only boost at 3,500 rpm?

    Hi, I am relatively new to this forum, (couple of months), but well addicted already, this is my first "help required please" post, and while I may or may not be able to find the answer if I look long enough at the masses of threads, (divorce is not an option), I would be appreciative if people could suggest what might be wrong with my standard '95 ABY Avant.

    It idles roughly, like a V6 with a suspect cylinder, and bogs down on prompt take off if not rev'ed to 4/5K, for say crossing a busy junction, turning right.

    It has a new lamda probe, N75 valve, Baily recirculating valve, cleaned throttle body, partially cleaned MAF (needs to be done again overnight with more alcohol), new engine speed sensor, new Idle Stablisation Valve, (this made a very positive difference when fitted - less "hunting" when radiator fan cuts in in traffic, worth the money IMHO).

    Two new knock sensors are on back order. I also have to check the vacumm hoses yet?

    It revs to 7,000 rpm and boosts well after 3,500 rpm, but will not wake up at 2,000 rpm like I feel it should do from reading all of the old magazine artilces dated 1994/1995, when they compared S2's to S2 Nothelle, RS2 and the MTM S2 with 428bhp.

    An 034 Manifold and downpipe is ordered, together with a Garrett T-2871R and RS2 like injectors, a custom chip, it will also have a 3" system fitted to it with no cats shortly, but in the meantime I'd still like people's advices on what the cause of the "boost hole" is between 2,000 rpm and 3,500 rpm as it is driven everyday and would naturally be nicer to drive if this problem was cured now and before the new parts are fitted.

    The specialist from who the parts are ordered from has been extremely helpful to date and made a number of suggestions of things to check, which I am working my way through, but I was wondering if I might be lucky enough to find someone who has had and cured this problem in the past?

    Sorry to be so long winded, but I thought I give the full pictue in the first post!

    Thank you in advance for your interest.
  • DJones
    S2Forum Fiend
    • Jun 2005
    • 2020
    • Country: United Kingdom

    #2
    Sounds like a boost leak. whats your MPG like?

    Comment

    • macspring
      S2Forum Zealot
      • Mar 2005
      • 6371
      • Home: Ireland Current: Wallis & Futuna

      #3
      Mpg

      Around town 12 to 16 mpg as per MFA. On a run it is better, but it is heavy around town because of wide open throttle looking for boost to happen, unless one changes down a gear or two?

      Comment

      • Dan_s2_coupe
        S2Forum Addict
        • Aug 2006
        • 482
        • Country: United Kingdom

        #4
        Could be the maf sounds a bit like it

        Comment

        • Ross
          S2Forum Possessed
          • Aug 2005
          • 3399
          • Country: England

          #5
          I'd definitely check the hoses for splits + leaks. That's some great kit you've got ordered there, and before you go ahead and fit it you want the car in good-working order for sure. I've done alot of work recently on my 3B and it drives sooo much nicer when everything is spot-on! Finally I'm confident that everything is uprated enough to now plan the "final" (yeah right) step to up the power!!

          The car is great with stock+ remap round town - you should jump off the line with any start above 2k and feel the boost kick like a train as it builds between 2-3k round town! It feels like riding a torque wave as you short-shift

          MPG usually gives a good indication of a problem, I tend to get 18mpg round town and about 22-24mpg combined. If it drops below and i've not been driving it very hard it's a sign something isn't quite right!
          AUDI - saving Dad's from minivans since 1994

          Comment

          • alg
            S2Forum Extremist
            • Apr 2004
            • 1160

            #6
            Worth double checking its not been 'chipped' if you are getting boost coming in @ 3.5k as those are the characteristics of some 'chipped' cars with higher boost pressures.
            Alastair
            RS2

            Comment

            • mcandmar
              S2Forum Zealot
              • Apr 2004
              • 5118
              • Country: Ireland

              #7
              Jumping in here with an update on David’s behalf. We met up the other night and had a look at his mint example of an S2 avant, very nice motor Unfortunately we didn’t have any luck finding the problem so hopefully some of you guys can give a few suggestions.

              Car idles like crap, sounds like its running on 3 to 4 cyls, holding revs around 2-3000rpms it runs smooth but not how it should. Also runs very rich. Here’s what we tried in an attempt to diagnose the problem,

              - VAGcom - lots of codes from previous work, lots of injectors and sensors been unplugged, engine speed sensor error, and a lambda adaptation limit reached. Cleared them all and the only one that came back was the engine speed sensor. Cleared it again and didn’t get any more after that.

              - Injectors - as mentioned unplugging cyl 1,4,5 has a noticeable cyl loss. cyl 2 makes a slight difference, and when unplugging cyl 3 i couldn’t tell any difference at all. Plugged a spare injector in and it was firing so it’s getting a signal and the injectors all work as they have been cleaned and tested. Looks like cyl 3 isn’t firing properly but i'm reasonably happy to rule out a fuelling problem.

              - Ignition - We tried some of my parts that are known to be working fine. Two POS units and the complete coil packs with cover. No difference. In the process we got the two white connectors from the coilpacks mixed up and had to try each position. To my surprise it had little to no effect which way around we connected the plugs. It took a while to make our mind up if it was better or worse each time. I was expecting it to fire in the wrong order and not start or backfire but it started each time and ran more of less the same. very odd.

              I think the next step would be a compression test, i wouldn’t be surprised if it was a bent or chipped valve on cyl 3. Other thought i have would be an incorrect firing order on the coilpacks or fuel injectors. It runs how i would imagine an engine with two spark plug pleads mixed up. Does anybody have a link for an ABY engine wiring diagram with wire colours?

              Also would anybody know how you trigger the output tests? I used the vagcom to start the tests but I couldn’t figure out how to trigger each one. I though it was done by opening the throttle?

              Cheers,

              Mark.
              91CQ20v - Gone to a new home
              93UR-S4 - The Magic Carpet
              94S2Bus - The Emerald Express

              Comment

              • macspring
                S2Forum Zealot
                • Mar 2005
                • 6371
                • Home: Ireland Current: Wallis & Futuna

                #8
                Torch it now!

                Mark,

                Thanks for posting the comprehensive update. It's exactly as he tells it, with one difference, the next day it was running even worse, so swopped the two white plugs around and it made a marginal improvement, problaby back to where to where it was before Mark and myself carried the tests as detailed in Mark's post.

                As this stage, I just want to torch the car! It's cracking me up with how bad it is and how good it could be, if I could spot what's wrong with it.

                Doesn't appear to have any boost leaks, or inlet leaks.

                Does anyone happen to know the correct VAG and Bosch part numbers for the lambda probe?

                What are the causes of an S2 running very rich?

                If anyone has ever had similar problems/symptoms I would be grateful to hear of their experiences/cures.

                Many thanks in advance.

                David in Dublin

                Comment

                • Jon441cc
                  S2Forum Fiend
                  • Dec 2005
                  • 2061
                  • Country: United Kingdom

                  #9
                  Which cylinders where producing white spark plugs?
                  sigpic

                  Comment

                  • macspring
                    S2Forum Zealot
                    • Mar 2005
                    • 6371
                    • Home: Ireland Current: Wallis & Futuna

                    #10
                    Sorry, I wasn't clear regarding the white plugs comment.

                    It was the two male and female plugs on the small plug holer close the the bulkhead at the rar of the engine. The two sets of plugs on the LHS of the line of five, as you look into the engine from the front bumper, were the two that were reversed.

                    Just to confirm their location on the car, two of the other five sets ofplugs on this holder are the knock sensor connections.

                    Apologies for not being clear.

                    After reading other searched for posts this evening, I'm going to try the suggestion of the metal sheet and coil pack lid with five spare spark plugs in it and crank over the engine to see firsthand if all five spark plugs fire, (all fuel injectors disconnected to prevent flooding the engine, and fuel pump fuse removed).

                    Will also test the pins on the MAF with a multi meter as per the info on s2central.net/ds_G70.html#Burn-Off

                    Thanks !

                    Comment

                    • mcandmar
                      S2Forum Zealot
                      • Apr 2004
                      • 5118
                      • Country: Ireland

                      #11
                      David, I've been reading through the vagcom manual and come up with the following. The measuring blocks were not labelled as your car is a late model with a factory immobiliser. Looking on Paul Nugents website turns out the ecu has a later part number ending with a B. Big thank you to PaulN for posting the later label files for download

                      Now the interesting bit, the 10 fields logged in the excel file are,

                      ; 000,01,Coolant Temperature,Idle 184-215
                      ; 000,02,Engine Load,Idle 20-26
                      ; 000,03,Engine Speed (RPM),Idle 77-83
                      ; 000,04,Operating range of IAC valve,Idle 121-135
                      ; 000,05,IAC curve zero point,Idle 70-125
                      ; 000,06,IAC load adjustment,Idle 123-137
                      ; 000,07,IAC curve control,Idle 41-61
                      ; 000,08,Lambda control,Idle 123-133
                      ; 000,09,Lambda adaptation,Idle 100-141
                      ; 000,10,Ignition Timing,Idle 35-37

                      The numbers after are the acceptable range of values you should see in vagcom for each sensor reading. I took a log from your car at idle which looks like,

                      169 29 81 132 81 131 48 130 188 40
                      169 29 81 132 81 131 48 128 188 41
                      169 30 79 132 81 131 48 128 188 40
                      169 30 84 132 81 131 48 128 188 41
                      169 30 83 132 81 131 48 127 188 41
                      169 30 83 132 81 131 48 130 188 41
                      169 29 82 132 81 131 48 131 188 41
                      169 30 81 132 81 131 48 131 188 40
                      169 29 84 132 81 131 48 130 188 41
                      169 29 81 132 81 131 48 129 188 41
                      169 28 78 132 81 131 48 129 188 41
                      169 29 78 132 81 131 48 128 188 41
                      169 29 77 132 81 131 48 127 188 40
                      169 29 83 132 81 131 48 127 188 41
                      169 29 80 132 81 131 48 126 188 40
                      169 29 81 132 81 131 48 126 188 41
                      170 29 79 132 81 131 48 126 188 40
                      170 29 83 132 81 131 48 129 188 40
                      170 28 84 132 81 131 48 130 188 41
                      170 28 80 131 81 131 48 129 188 41
                      170 28 80 131 81 131 48 129 188 39
                      170 29 83 131 81 131 48 128 188 41
                      170 29 79 131 81 131 48 128 188 40
                      170 29 77 131 81 131 48 127 188 40
                      170 29 83 131 81 131 48 127 188 39
                      170 29 78 131 81 131 48 126 188 41
                      170 29 81 131 81 131 48 127 188 40
                      170 28 79 131 81 131 48 129 188 41
                      170 28 81 131 81 131 48 131 188 40

                      What jumps out at me is the engine coolant temp sensor, value of 169-170 vs the normal 184-215. I'm 99% sure your car was fully warmed up when we did the log so it looks like a dodgy temp sensor. I have heard a faulty sensor will give the ECU a very cold reading, i.e. run very rich.

                      Lambda adaptation is very high, but with the engine running so rich it’s not very surprising. We did also get Lambda adaptation limit reached errors in vagcom when we started so its all seems to tie in.

                      Think we have a plan of action again I have a couple of those sensors spare if you want to change it out and see what effect it has. Label file also lists groups 1,2,3 which covers Throttle Angle, Intake Air Tempthrottle, Idle switch, and Temps in more detail so we can check them too. Sorry for cancelling saturday, still trying to shake off this cold

                      Anybody else reading this please speak up if you have any suggestions

                      Mark.
                      Last edited by mcandmar; 23 October 2006, 15:58.
                      91CQ20v - Gone to a new home
                      93UR-S4 - The Magic Carpet
                      94S2Bus - The Emerald Express

                      Comment

                      • dkw_dude
                        S2Forum Maniac
                        • Jul 2003
                        • 555
                        • Country: Norway

                        #12
                        Originally posted by mcandmar
                        Anybody else reading this please speak up if you have any suggestions

                        Mark.
                        On my 3B (warm engine, idle) the load value stays at ~20-21, and the ignition timing is between 35-37 as specified. Maybe your MAF gives too high value, and causes too heavy fuelling/rich mixture? I would try to borrow a known good MAF and see if the car runs better..
                        Leif-Helge
                        -91 S2 VEMS and Comp Turbo
                        -12 B** 530XD Touring "S2 parts transporter, and daily driver"

                        Comment

                        • S2central.net
                          Retired OG Mod
                          • Jul 2003
                          • 16590
                          • Country: Northern Ireland

                          #13
                          Channel 9 !
                          Paul Nugent
                          Webmaster http://S2central.net
                          Administrator http://S2forum.com

                          1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                          2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                          2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                          Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                          There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

                          Comment

                          • S2central.net
                            Retired OG Mod
                            • Jul 2003
                            • 16590
                            • Country: Northern Ireland

                            #14
                            Sorry - channel 9 is way off spec as well - crap lambda probe... or its running so damn rich with the fake cold temp that its just tracking that.

                            The water temp does look way off - I'd check / change the coolant temp sensor - bif a booger to get at on the ABY. Its at rear of the head. I'll dig out the specs for it with some luck.

                            I'm wondering if I can make a trundle down sout at the weekend with some gizmos to help fix this sick pup. Its always nice to have another car to compare things with (not that mine is perfick health).

                            What is the MAF output voltage like at idle and when you blip the throttle ?

                            You might have a dicky MAF and/or small air leak judging by channel 2... Timing is a bit off... May also be a side effect of fake cold temp... ECU wants to provide additional advance when cold so that is consistent.

                            Paul
                            Paul Nugent
                            Webmaster http://S2central.net
                            Administrator http://S2forum.com

                            1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                            2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                            2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                            Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                            There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

                            Comment

                            • S2central.net
                              Retired OG Mod
                              • Jul 2003
                              • 16590
                              • Country: Northern Ireland

                              #15
                              Send me the log files when you can to s2central@mac.com

                              The spec for the coolant sensor is 1.5-3.0 kohms at 20C (Bit rubbish and inaccurate really - I don't have a spare one here to bench test)

                              Paul
                              Paul Nugent
                              Webmaster http://S2central.net
                              Administrator http://S2forum.com

                              1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                              2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                              2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                              Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                              There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

                              Comment

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