Stages (like with Cosworth)! Example for a sticky?

[1975DCS]

@ Moderators

There are a lot of thread out there with question like what would I need for 400 bhp. Isn't it possible to make a sticky for some stages (like 270/300/350/400/450/500bhp) and what you really need to do and what is also recommended or perhaps better to do for this "stage". Ofcourse I am talking about things most tuners or readers would agree about. Maybe if someone want to add some importand info only the moderator would be possible to change the sticky (to keep it clean)?

I mean info like this 350bhp example:

Turbo: K26 or GT30
Pistons: 3B/ABY/RS2
Compression ratio: 9.3
Conrods: 3B/ABY/RS2
Conrodbolts: 3B/ABY/RS2
Shells/bearings: 3B/ABY/RS2 (Best is RS2)
Exhaustmanifold: RS2 (or better)
Inletmanifold: 3B/ABY/RS2
Coil upgrade 3B: yes / no?
Minimum downpipe: 2.5 inch
Airbox: 3B/ABY/RS2 (or heatshielded cone filter)
Intercooler: RS2 (or better)
Oilcooler upgrade: no
Watercooler upgrade: no
Strokerkit: no
Headstudkit: no (but recommended)
Sparkplugs: F5DP0R
Headgasket: steel layer (like late RS2)

[Greg_S]

Sounds like a good idea.

270 and 350 are easy ones to do, above that there alot of variations on turbos dependent on peoples power delivery expectations and if it is a 2.2 or 2.5 for example

[Jamo]

I'm not actual pro this idea as ive seen it on other forums and when the owners cars can't reach the BHP of the suppose called "stage" then they come back slagging people off for recommending the supposed "stage" specs.

IMO there's no such thing as a stage tuning, there's a requirement that a customer wants and a method to reach that goal.

Also specs change all the time, 2-3 years ago the recommendation would have been KKK turbos, now there's a shift to the Garrett / K26 hotside turbo's

No two specs are good for the same person.

My advice would be threefold to do your reading and then speak to a spread of tuners and then maybe pop a post on the forum with your bhp goal and then your credit limit for this.

[Jamo]

Lets take your spec: 350 bhp is your aim

Turbo: K26 or GT30 <-- forget the K26 range of turbo's, standard RS2 Turbo or GT3071 will get you that easily or MTM hybrid turbo.
Pistons: 3B/ABY/RS2 <-- Standard Audi pistons on all cars are good enough
Compression ratio: 9.3 <----- You need a metal head gasket this will drop the compression to 8.something cant think of the top of my head.
Conrods: 3B/ABY/RS2 <------- for 350 Bhp standard conrods on all models will take it
Conrodbolts: 3B/ABY/RS2 <-------- same again
Shells/bearings: 3B/ABY/RS2 (Best is RS2) <-------- RS2 and ABY are the same IIRC just dont use the 3B ones
Exhaustmanifold: RS2 (or better) <-------- yep
Inletmanifold: 3B/ABY/RS2 <--------- No change required, only really change if you want an MTM style inlet to reduce boost track
Coil upgrade 3B: yes / no? <--------- Speak to Audiman
Minimum downpipe: 2.5 inch <-------- stock downpipe is 2.5" ideally you want 2.75 RS2 downpipe or 3" custom downpipe
Airbox: 3B/ABY/RS2 (or heatshielded cone filter) <----- depends on turbo. Some you will need to use a cone filter as some turbos fitments wont allow retainment of stock box, if going cone HKS or Apexi are good ones.
Intercooler: RS2 (or better) <-------- RS2 or custom plenty of threads detailing this one
Oilcooler upgrade: no <-------- Ensure it's not leaking and inlet isn't blocked with leaves
Watercooler upgrade: no <------- Change thermostat and check pipes, samco or SFS upgrade recommended
Strokerkit: no <---------
Headstudkit: no (but recommended) <------- Stock audi are good, ARP if you can afford them.
Sparkplugs: F5DP0R
Headgasket: steel layer (like late RS2) <------ All headgasket kits sold now are metal if your car is 3B it will have a paper one, get rid or it will blown (again see Audiman posts for this )

I would also cost for remap and odds and sods.

This conversions path has just been done by Ross and he has a detailed thread with bits on.

[VladaS2]

Add one item, estimated cost

[S2central.net]

I'm with Jamo on this - there are far too many variables... And its infantile to talk about modifications in a simplistic 'Stage 1', 'Stage 2' approach for specific bhp targets as there are so many other things to consider.

Certainly there are some well proven combinations which work for specific aims along the lines of a software only upgrade (270-280bhp) then the RS2 upgrade (340-360bhp). But beyond those, and in between actually, there are many many different ways to go.

People can learn from the recommendations and experience of those who have performed a (say) 450bhp conversion in terms of what was involved, how much it cost, and what driveability was like (beyond carpet mashing WOT)... But it wouldn't be helpful to try and categorise all of these tweaks into Stage 1-2-3 etc etc



Cheers,

Paul

[Keeper of The Kitten]

I agree, never liked the "stage" description myself (and I remember the days at high school when other kids talked about buying "power bands" for their mopeds, it rankled with me then, and it still does...)

I know what I want to get from my current spec engine - but if it doesn't achieve the actual numbers, I won't be crying to someone about it.

At the end of the day I'm more interested in the actual performance figures, rather than the power required to get them - it's just that people often ask about bhp and you feel obliged to give them a ballpark figure.

__MDC__

[Rusty]

As long as people keep posting their projects and those in the know keep answering the technical questions, I'm happy. Stage tuning is a bit of a simplistic approach but I have to admit that the same information gets repeated over and over to S2 owners looking to tune their car to a given power output or boost characteristic ('m guilty of both side of that one). With this is mind, I have seen on ClubGTi that there are a few sticky threads with links to similar projects. I was looking into an ABF conversion for a mk.2 and there were about 15 - 20 links in the one thread, all the same aim but different experiences and lots of advice. This could be a decent way of grouping really useful threads together in one place to save trawling trough the search results but would require moderator update control. Perhaps grouping the threads into power output might be a compromise because it shows what others have done without promising that it works!

[Corey]

Then you get the customer asking for a stage1 kit and then the conversation goes "why does yours cost... when XXXXXX costs....?"

I prefer to ask what sort of hp they are after then go from there.

[1975DCS]

My idea was more or less to get an idea of what needs to be done to sort it properly for a certain goal of BHP/Torque. I mean some people swear to do it over engineerd, while others take the risk!

I thought the Cosworth example was going to be nice as up to a certain level they all take about the same route regarding turbosize, injectors, compression ratio, etc. Ofcourse this only work up to a given level, but high enough to sort most....

Oh and most importend pro for stages: preventing you from a missmatch or preventing you from things you would not need!

[Corey]

There are many things to take into consideration

Budget
What use for the car (road, track, daily, occasional)
Do you want to do it in stages
Do you want it to stay looking stock
Aggressive or progressive performance

[1975DCS]

Lets take your spec: 350 bhp is your aim

No no this was just an example, but maybe... But I tought it would be interesting to see what other "stages" would involve.

Turbo: K26 or GT30 <-- forget the K26 range of turbo's, standard RS2 Turbo or GT

Sorry I tought the K26 was from an RS2...

Compression ratio: 9.3 <----- You need a metal head gasket this will drop the compression to 8.something cant think of the top of my head.

Does it drop that much? Are you sure +/- 1 down? I don't want it drop that far!

Shells/bearings: 3B/ABY/RS2 (Best is RS2) <-------- RS2 and ABY are the same IIRC just dont use the 3B ones

I do have an 3B...

Watercooler upgrade: no <------- Change thermostat and check pipes, samco or SFS upgrade recommended

Do you mean different spec thermostat?

Headstudkit: no (but recommended) <------- Stock audi are good, ARP if you can afford them.

For my previous Astra they were not that expensive...

Headgasket: steel layer (like late RS2) <------ All headgasket kits sold now are metal if your car is 3B it will have a paper one, get rid or it will blown (again see Audiman posts for this )

Also see compression ratio. How does the RS2 get 9.3:1 then? Do the paper ones also blow easily on 280 exaples?

Oh and howabout the injectors?

[1975DCS]

There are many things to take into consideration

Budget
What use for the car (road, track, daily, occasional)
Do you want to do it in stages
Do you want it to stay looking stock
Aggressive or progressive performance

There are no plans yet
But if it would it would have to be for road and reliable enough
I think it is best and cheaper to do it all in once
Does the engine make any different for the looks
I think in between 350-400 bhp and 500Nm would be wise enough

[Corey]

There are no plans yet
But if it would it would have to be for road and reliable enough
I think it is best and cheaper to do it all in once
Does the engine make any different for the looks
I think in between 350-400 bhp and 500Nm would be wise enough

There will be other things to add to the list but

turbo GT2871
intercooler RS2
exhaust manifold RS2 or RS2 custom

to give you an idea.

Some people want their car to look like it came from the factory regardless of what hp they are running.
Yes you are correct it is better to do it all at once that way you save on the labour (if you are paying someone else to do it) and you would only have one mapping session to pay for.

[Jamo]

Compression ratio to 9:0:1 with metal gasket

Use default thermostat just change it if not been done before.