Torque Settings

[APNess]

Hi all - nope, I've not fallen off the end of the world, just been busy with real life. Thanks to all you guys for help and encouragement with all the bother I've had with my car.

Took the front end off today. The Cam wheel is knackered. The timing on that was out, and the 'woodruff key' (got a friend who knows more about these things than I. I'd have called it 'the bit that sticks out') totally sheared off. Exhaust and Inlet cams both out by a couple of teeth, but I think I've been lucky (famous last words) and the valves are still ok. The inner shiny wheel was bent as if by a screwdriver, and worn on the inside.

Tensioner was hand tight (I could just about pull the timing belt off) so here's my question:

What should the torque settings be for everything around the camshaft area?

Camshaft bearing studs? Tom (Audiman) in his (helpful, by the way) guide says 15nm, but two studs sheared off at that.

Cam pulley?

The stuff at the front - pas belt, timing belt tensioner etc.

I did try and get a haynes manual on the Audi 80, but I believe they've helpfully missed out the years 89-95, unless anyone knows different.

Anyway, bits on order from the local stealers (with an extra £7.50 to pay to have em by tommorrow cause I was half an hour past their cut off at 2.30pm to order. Cheers guys ) and hopefully, maybe, by some miracle, the car will be running again tommorrow. I hope. Maybe.

By some miracle. Etc.

By the way guys, if all the bits on the front are as loose as mine were, it'll take you about half an hour to do a timing belt change

Cheers for any and all help

Paul

[Lee]

Try this linky for 20V torque values:

http://www.isham-research.com/quattro/torque.html

Good luck mate, and keep us posted on progress.

Lee

[Stick Insect]

Re: Torque Settings

Originally posted by APNess

Took the front end off today. The Cam wheel is knackered. The timing on that was out, and the 'woodruff key' (got a friend who knows more about these things than I. I'd have called it 'the bit that sticks out') totally sheared off.

exhaust and Inlet cams both out by a couple of teeth, but I think I've been lucky (famous last words) and the valves are still ok. The inner shiny wheel was bent as if by a screwdriver, and worn on the inside.

Paul

Paul when fitting the new cam wheel may I suggest lapping it on the shaft before fitting the woodruff key.

How to lap: put valve grinding past on the shaft end and rotate the pulley on the shaft back and forwards when you have done this twice ( new paste) it will fit far better. clean and clean again the shaft and the pulley. fit the woodruff key and make sure it is put into the shaft well. Then fit the pulley. lapping it properly will make sure that it goes on as a snug fit.

My cams were out by a couple of teeth, the belt had jumped. the car was flat and did not have any 'sparkle'. I assume both cams were out as they are chain linked. I feel the RS2 exhaust cam is another profile but 5degrees out. I assume that it is not intentionaly out for this purpose.

You have to do lots of trial fitting and lapping on old mini engines to build them right.
HTH

David

[SteveH]

David,

The woodruff key is attached to the cam pulley on the S2. There's no way you could rotate the pulley on the shaft. Infact the key itself, is a poor design. It's rounded at the rear of the pulley, so only the front half of the key is located on the cam. These do break off easily if the pulley is loose or if you attempt to rotate the camshafts with the cam pulley on, but not tightened up...BTDT

Paul...Damn lucky you checked these components. I recon it may be worth removing the crank bolt and ensuring this is torqed to the correct value too.

[audiman]

Dont you question me! LOL. Paul I am trying to phone you, but I have lost your phone numbers. Give me a ring this weekend mate.

Cam pulley is 67Nm from memory. sounds like the work was done well

Sounds like those cam nuts have been over torqued by someone at some point, mine 'felt' fine at that torque. You didnt set the wrench for 15ftlbs did you? LOL

[S2central.net]

PJ - Gimme a shout if you need the official ABY mechanical engine info from factory - in English. I have all the torque settings, just never had time to collate all the info on S2 Central yet... Call me on the mobi if you need any info from zee bible.

The word 'bodge' does spring to mind when I read your description of the faults you have found, but you are incredibly lucky that no serious damage has been done to your engine.

Breathe easy now, take your time with your rebuild of the head and double check everything. Then when you crank it with the right chips it should restore a smile to your face... then a huge whopping grin after the custom mapping is complete !


Cheers,

Paul

[APNess]

AN UPDATE!

Cheers guys for all your help and comments! Tom - just read the message now - I'll stick my numbers in a pm to you.

Torqued the new cam pulley (actually, 'new', 'new' cause I sheared the key off a brand new pulley yesterday) up today after emptying each tappet - 2 were knackered - would not pump - so they got changed. Shredded 8 studs and 3 nuts at 15nm torque on the cam bearings - the studs are a 'use once' item according to the stealer :S

Battery was totally flat, so after charging, tried to crack the car up... success! Plenty of 'Tom C' white smoke out the back at first but once it warmed up was virtually gone.

Oh yes, the 7a cam came out cause the key slot was knackered too, or half knackered, so there's another £200 ish down the tubes

Car has standard cams back in, all timed up right, oil pressure rock solid, idle 800 rpm.

First time (after warm up and steady running off boost) I pressed the loud pedal to 1.4 bar got something worrying...

HISSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!

The turbo to intercooler pipe (my chrome bling bodge effort mk 1) split, and the engine ground to a halt. Crawled back to house at 10mph.

Mk 2 chrome bling bodge pipe has a longer length of metal, more for circlip to grip onto, and first impressions are that it's done the trick. Going to order a length of 60mm hose and do a proper job - anyone got any better ideas or pre made pipes for turbo -> i/cooler (big turbo boys - what have you done with yours? Standard one had too many crimps and kinks for my liking.) Didn't wind boost up to max when testing it - just 1.1 bar ish, and it held fine.

Going to run the car now for a while off boost (i.e. anywhere below 3.5k rpm) to make sure everythings ok, and give it a damn good clean. It looks like it's been dipped in oil and rolled in grit.

More relieved to get the car going again after all the crappy stuff it's had done - also glad didn't put the ecu back in without sorting the cams out cause that would have been completely disastrous (new head, valves etc).

Obviously will need a custom remap for S2 cams instead of the 7a job, but I'd rather play safe than risk the (200 mile old - i.e. brand new... )7a cam now. Will post a picture of the damage.

So my list now reads - good clean, new locking wheel nut socket (cause mine didn't come back with the car...) so I can get the wheels off, pipes from SFS for piece of mind, cure blowing exhaust, remap, brakes, respray.

By the way - RS2 boys... your cars LAG like mad! Holy smoke! Get it remapped! (Am running stock RS2 maps - MANY MANY THANKS to Paul N - you're on my beer list, as is Doug, Tom, Leigh, Mark H, Vagparts, in fact everyone who's helped out/suggested fixes - cheers guys!)

Will keep u updated with car progress over next few days. Going to drive it off boost to make sure all is well. THAT is my idea of a 'shakedown'...

Cheers guys,

Regards Paul J (And now I'm off for a beer, cause damn. I need one!)

[Doug_RS2]

Good to hear it is running better.

It will be interesting to see that damaged cam - you could get some more material machined off and a custom wooduff key made for it.

Have I got this right - the turbo to IC pipe is broke?

I made my own from 2 45degree silicon hoses and a metal t piece, as my original RS2 one split at the t-part - even though I fixed that one - I think I still have this one if you want it?

[Doug_RS2]

And here is a crap picture of my new one - before it was cut to the correct lengths.

[sal_s2]

When using the metal pipes, its best to get a "lip" welded around each end so that the jubilee clip has something to hold against, especially if running high boost.

[APNess]

Doug - have used the standard turbo-intercooler pipe... then to a metal R5turbo pipe with t piece, then a piece of the old pipe, then a piece of stainless exhaust trim (as seen on vauxhall novas across the land) with a rim 'punched' into it with a punch n hammer, then a piece of old pipe into the intercooler.

Circlips all over the place of course.

(The old pipe had been used when I picked the car up, and was the standard one which had been put on so that there was a crimp so bad I'd say it was compressed to about 10-20mm opening, no more, i.e. strangling the car.)

The inlet to turbo was worse - a piece of rubber pipe had been placed over the standard hose with no clips whatsoever. Leaks a go go. That has been sorted (using a piece of steel exhaust trim pipe and the 70-60 reducer from my intercooler, so I'll be ordering a new one of those too.)

Gonna put an order in for a length of 60mm hose and a couple o' bends too to properly sort the turbo-> i/cooler. Also thinking on using the k&n filter so will need a piece of flexible metal or plastic hose for the air inlet, a u-bend, and someone who can fashion a circular metal 'box' for the k & n cone.

Just got in from the pub so posting before I get up (ooooh, at 5.30am - don't u just love 7 month old kids :S ) and start the long hard task of making the car presentable again, both outside (shudder) and in (cringe).

Relieved as fook that the car is running again, even if I'm not sure right now I can use anywhere near full throttle.

I have avoided in every post I have made to critisice Siena (Vagsport) for the work he's done, but after finding out the disasters with the exhaust cam it's been a case of biting my tongue with every post I've made. It's dangling off by a few threads of skin right now - I'll leave it at that and say no more. Oh yeah. Apart from the fact the timing belt hasn't been done either (so where's the new timing belt gone then...?), or if it HAS been done, it's aged 50,000 miles in the 200 miles since I picked the car up. Another job to do then, on the list...

Cheers friends, and regards,

PJ (Patience tried to the extreme, but still keeping the faith... just)

[Mark Halligan]

Paul,

good to see you,ve got it running ok now, I did the same as Doug with the turbo to IC hose (SFS tubing and a metal T for the DV), I have a standard one of these hoses lying around somewhere if you want it?

Mark.

[APNess]

Attached - picture of the damaged camshaft and knackered cam pulley. The gap at the none pointed end of the arrow is where the key should be (as part of the wheel).

The camshaft's *only* chipped - worth repairing? Or alright as is? Or best used as an expensive paperweight?

[APNess]

And the cam wheel - the shiny bit inside is where it ground against the cam sensor I presume... I wondered why I might need a new one...

[Doug_RS2]

:eek2: you could probably use the cam if the pulley feels like it locks in place ok. Or get a weld on the chip and ground down to the original shape.

The cam pulley looks nasty - how much was the new one?