Overbootsting and cuts out. Can't find the problem. Long thread with movies and so...

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  • NEO
    S2Forum Addict
    • Oct 2003
    • 326
    • Country: Sweden

    #1

    Overbootsting and cuts out. Can't find the problem. Long thread with movies and so...

    Mkay... This will be a long one. My apologies for that folks.

    I start with the spec of the car so you know what we are dealing with. And then I take the problem and the questions.

    Spec:
    * Audi S2 Coupé 94, ABY
    * RS2 intake manifold
    * RS2 exhaust manifold
    * RS2 and green bosch "968" fuel injectors (tested with both, more about that later on)
    * RS2 turbo
    * RS2 MAF
    * ECU rebuild to meat RS2 spec, resistor changed and MAP sensor replaced to 3 bar
    * RS2 350 hk chip with 1.6 bar in boost (also tested original RS2 chip)
    * 7a exhaust cam
    * 3.5" downpipe and race catalysator
    * New Roose Motorsport silicon hoses (all big turbohoses and the MarkH mod on IC)
    * Newly renovated WG (tested two different, more about that later on)
    * Omori boost gauge and exhaust temp gauge.

    The problems and symptoms:
    When I put the pedal to the metal and give it full boost it overboosts and the boost pressure it flying through the roof and the engine cuts out. I have rigged my gauges and a lambda meter and filmed it all with various specs. It's hard to monitor the gauges while driving so this is how i did it.

    1. First test can be found here:

    It's, as the folder name hints, 350hk (359 is a typo) chip with the green 968 injectors. As seen on the to "50 to 220" movies the boost pressure hits the roof and then it cuts the fuel and it goes on like that. All movies are with swedish comments, sorry. WHen I should "KLIPPER!" it cuts out, as seen on the gauges. The pedal is glued to the floor in all these tests (...well... except the obvious ones where the engine is on idle. =)).

    2. Test 2 with RS2 injectors and the 350hk chips


    I have always had problems with high exhaust temperature with this setup. That's why I have the green 968 injectors instead of the original RS2 ones. But here is a couple of runs with the original RS2 injectors. Just to see if it was the injectors causing the problem. It wasn't... But notice how high in temp it runs. Also noticeable on the lambda meter that its running leaner. Same symptoms with it overboosting and cutting out.

    3. Test 3. Original RS2 315 hk chip and RS2 fuelinjectors

    This one is the "best" here: rs2chip.rs2inj.50.to.220.5th.gear.2.runs.AVI

    Notice how unstable it is at full boost. The pedal is glued to the floor here to. Also see how hot it runs! It does not seem to cut the fuel here. But i did feel some of those "cut out symptoms", think i might be screaming "KLIPPER" in the movie to...

    Mkay... So before all these tests the system have been pressure tested. No leaks what so ever. It's tested three or four times and with various hoses plugged and so. Most clamps on the bigger hoses are replaced to those babies with two allen keys, one on each side. Also swapped out nearly all small vacuum hoses and the one between the waste gate frequency valve (WGFV) and the waste gate.

    As I wrote in the spec the waste gate is newly renovated and should be in excellent condition. But I did find out that this WG is from a 3B. The part number on the 3B and ABY are not the same, but i do not know if there are any real differences on them? That could be giving me problems? Anyways... The symptoms I have was, according to many people, classic waste gate problems. So I started to play around with various waste gate setups to see what happened. And this are the tests and results:

    4. Test 4.


    Here I have removed the hose between the WG and the WGFV and plugged it in the WGFV end. And the electric connector to the WGFV is removed. Then it's only the spring in the WG that should determine the boost. The odd thing here is that it only goes to 1.4 bar. I have been told that it should pretty much fly through the roof when "configured" like this? I did feel some hesitation on some of the tests at 1.4 bar. And as seen on the needle in the boost gauge it does wobble a bit and after a while on 1.4 it drops. But it does not cut the fuel, but guess that's because the WGFV is disconnected.

    5. Test 5. Since i had it running pretty stable with the RS2 original chips at 1.4 bar I wanted to raise the boost pressure a tad. So I with the help of a 1 cm piece from a metal pipe I "bricked" (maybe bad name for it? =)) the WG spring up 1 cm. I know... not a nice solution, but just a temporary test.


    The "bricking" raised the boost from 1.4 to pprox 1.7.

    First run is this movie, WGFV is not connected and the hose between wg and wgfw is removed and plugged on the wgfv side: 350hk.968inj.bricked.MixedTests.5thGear.etc.1st.ru n.AVI
    It does load more then 1.4 bar as seen. Still unstable and it does cut out. But it does not cut the fuel.

    6. Test 6. The waste gate is still "bricked" but the WGFV => WG hose is connected as it should be and the wgfv is hooked up to it's power connector. 350hk.968inj.bricked.MixedTests.5thGear.etc.2nd.ru n.AVI
    As seen on the last run in this movie it overboosts and cuts fuel and boost.

    7. Test 7. Here I still have the hose disconnected and plugged but the WGFV is connected with it's power connector: 350hk.968inj.bricked.Floddy.Edition.3rd.run.AVI
    Would say i get the same results as in test 5. Couldn't notice any difference.

    Test 8. An interesting thing is that the boost pressure with the bricked WG and the wgfv not connected to power is 0.4 bar. The same as the original WG. I would have thought that it would go up 0.3 bar to around 0.7 bar it does that on full boost. A bit odd?

    Test 9. Since there was a huge difference in temperature outside when I tried with the bricked WG and the unbricked WG it was suggested that I should rerun the tests on the original WG under the same conditions.
    So I tried it with the wgfv => wg hose disconnected and plugged and the wgfv not connected to power.

    And after that I tried with the hose disconnected and plugged but with the wgfv connected to power.

    Pretty much the same results as on test 4 some pages up... Mkay, it loads 0.1 bar more but it was way cooler outside so nothing odd there.

    I have had no fault codes related to this. Only one is the N75 one. But that's related to me testing without it connected. A read out from vag-com:

    3 Faults Found:
    01262 - Solenoid Valve for Boost Pressure Control (N75)
    31-10 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent
    00281 - Vehicle Speed Sensor (G68)
    03-10 - No Signal - Intermittent
    00513 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28)
    03-00 - No Signal

    As you can imagine I'm pretty sick of this. And so are probably you if you manage to read this far. =) There are a bunch of questions.

    1. Are there any differences what so ever on the 3B and ABY waste gate other then the part number? Spring or other internal function?

    2. Have anybody had these symptoms? What was the problem? Did you solve it?

    I am sorry for the length of this post. And I hope that I typed in an understandable way and expressed myself clear enough. I hope to get some professional help from you guys. Thanks in advance!

    ps. i might come back and change grammar and spelling in a while. =)
    /NEO - I have a sexual thing for big brakes.
    www.irry.com | Irry got a face lift!
    #nordicaudi @ irc.nordicaudi.com
  • Knight Rider S4
    S2Forum Possessed
    • Mar 2005
    • 3541
    • Country: Scotland

    #2
    Knock sensor fault maybe ?
    93 S2 Avant Parting
    91 URQ RR
    02 A4 tdi Avant

    Comment

    • NEO
      S2Forum Addict
      • Oct 2003
      • 326
      • Country: Sweden

      #3
      Originally posted by Knight Rider S4
      Knock sensor fault maybe ?
      Wouldn't that turn up as a fault code? Any way to test those babies?
      /NEO - I have a sexual thing for big brakes.
      www.irry.com | Irry got a face lift!
      #nordicaudi @ irc.nordicaudi.com

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      • Knight Rider S4
        S2Forum Possessed
        • Mar 2005
        • 3541
        • Country: Scotland

        #4
        Yes it should ..not sure on testing ...most common for making the engine go into limp mode/loss of power/hestitation in delievery if they are faulty
        93 S2 Avant Parting
        91 URQ RR
        02 A4 tdi Avant

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        • newsh
          S2Forum Obsessed
          • Aug 2003
          • 16226
          • Country: United Kingdom

          #5
          It wil always overboost if the WG is disconnected as there is not any IM pressure to open it.

          S2 Coupe 3B Project


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          • newsh
            S2Forum Obsessed
            • Aug 2003
            • 16226
            • Country: United Kingdom

            #6
            Hmm, have you disconnected and cleaned the MAF connector?

            S2 Coupe 3B Project


            Ur quattro restoration

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            • newsh
              S2Forum Obsessed
              • Aug 2003
              • 16226
              • Country: United Kingdom

              #7
              Check for a boost leak at the ECU.

              S2 Coupe 3B Project


              Ur quattro restoration

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              • NEO
                S2Forum Addict
                • Oct 2003
                • 326
                • Country: Sweden

                #8
                Originally posted by newsh
                It wil always overboost if the WG is disconnected as there is not any IM pressure to open it.
                ...well... that's the problem. It does not overboost then. It peaks at 1.4 when the wgfv => wg hose is disconnected. But when that hose is connected it overboosts... So it' doing the opposit of what it should.

                What is normal to boost with original wastegate when that hose is disconnected? Are there any difference what so ever on the ABY and 3b wastegate? If so... What?

                Originally posted by newsh
                Hmm, have you disconnected and cleaned the MAF connector?
                Yep. Maybe I should give it another try though, just to be sure.

                Originally posted by newsh
                Check for a boost leak at the ECU.
                I have inspected the mapsensor and the hose that connects to the ECU and the hose inside the ECU. All looks fine. Also tested with another hose from ECU to the back of the IM. Same same. Never pressure tested the ECU when I had it out. Maybe I should shoot some air into it and see what happens?
                /NEO - I have a sexual thing for big brakes.
                www.irry.com | Irry got a face lift!
                #nordicaudi @ irc.nordicaudi.com

                Comment

                • newsh
                  S2Forum Obsessed
                  • Aug 2003
                  • 16226
                  • Country: United Kingdom

                  #9
                  Yeah, I must admit I suspect a small leak somewhere.
                  It really should overboost with the WG hose disconnected. If that hose is not connected then the WG cannot open.. unless exhaust pressure is pushing the valve up??
                  Are you sure you have the WGFV hoses connected the right way round?

                  S2 Coupe 3B Project


                  Ur quattro restoration

                  S2 Avant

                  Boost is the new rock and roll!
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                  • NEO
                    S2Forum Addict
                    • Oct 2003
                    • 326
                    • Country: Sweden

                    #10
                    Originally posted by newsh
                    Yeah, I must admit I suspect a small leak somewhere.
                    It really should overboost with the WG hose disconnected. If that hose is not connected then the WG cannot open.. unless exhaust pressure is pushing the valve up??
                    Are you sure you have the WGFV hoses connected the right way round?
                    Yep. It's properly connected. The pipe in the bottom to the turbo. The shortest sidepipe to the WG and the longest pipe to the big MAF hose. How much would it overboost? Any pratical experience of it?

                    And since the wgfv is disconnected and out of play when that hose is disconnected the lack of overboost can not be the fault of the wgfv. Or was you thinking of some other situation?

                    It feels like if it was a leak it would get worse and worse and eventually blow the leaking component to smithereens. I have been thinking about the exhaust manifold gasket. Would a leaking gasket there cause problems like this? I ask since I have had some problems with two of those nuts unscrewing themselves. That problem is solved but maybe the gasket have taken a hit?
                    /NEO - I have a sexual thing for big brakes.
                    www.irry.com | Irry got a face lift!
                    #nordicaudi @ irc.nordicaudi.com

                    Comment

                    • newsh
                      S2Forum Obsessed
                      • Aug 2003
                      • 16226
                      • Country: United Kingdom

                      #11
                      To check the boost without the WGFV control, remove the valve and plug the hose that goes to the MAF, now connect the hose from the turbo directly to the WG. You can leave the electrical connector on the WGFV so you dont get that code. You now have spring boost only. This will depend on your spring but normally around 0.4 Bar I think.
                      The spacer you put on the spring is not such a good idea as it limits the movement of the WG, it will not open fully to dump boost, the only way is to use a stronger spring at which point you need to remap IMHO.

                      S2 Coupe 3B Project


                      Ur quattro restoration

                      S2 Avant

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                      • prosty
                        S2Forum Extremist
                        • Jun 2005
                        • 1114
                        • Country: Sweden

                        #12
                        Try running without any spring at all, if you get any boost there is something wrong with the WG's and or the turbo / EM configuation, a properly sized / combo of WG and EM should divert all exh through the WG.
                        2004 9-5 aero
                        2009 Subaru Legacy Diesel
                        1994 Toyota Supra Eurospec 6-spd LHD
                        3-4 Audis in parts

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                        • NEO
                          S2Forum Addict
                          • Oct 2003
                          • 326
                          • Country: Sweden

                          #13
                          Finally found why it cuts out! I have crack in two cables for cylinder threes ignition coil. I borrowed a complete ignition coil cover to test with. As soon as I removed mine I saw the cracks. I have looked at mine before but never seen them but now I saw them at once. WIth the borrowed cover and coils it ran smooth. Now I just have to lower the boost a tad. =)
                          Attached Files
                          /NEO - I have a sexual thing for big brakes.
                          www.irry.com | Irry got a face lift!
                          #nordicaudi @ irc.nordicaudi.com

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                          • lind4hl
                            S2Forum Fiend
                            • Jul 2008
                            • 2465
                            • Country: Sweden

                            #14
                            im glad you sorted it out

                            bought a new set of coils? i have a complete coilpack lying around

                            One thing i've learned we are way behind the Scandinavians!

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                            • newsh
                              S2Forum Obsessed
                              • Aug 2003
                              • 16226
                              • Country: United Kingdom

                              #15
                              NEO Man, that took a year to find?




                              S2 Coupe 3B Project


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