RS2 Turbo's and Exhaust Manifolds

[Doug_RS2]

Originally posted by S2central.net
The 7A or ADU exhaust camshaft won't stop you getting to ~400bhp. If you have a big enough turbo, mated to an RS2 or better exhaust manifold along with green injectors then all is needed is custom ECU chips for your needs.

Paul

Paul - what kind of Turbo is needed for 400bhp? What do they cost? Are they sraight bolt on ones? Is it the RS2 turbo that would limit my car to 360bhp?

I wonder if it's worth changing this before I get the car mapped properly.

Thanks

[S2central.net]

Reckon a proper K26/27 hybrid should get you there... or a full on K27 if you want more top end at the detriment of a little more lag.

The 'S1' manifold from MTM comes in two flavours to suit the K26 or K27 hot sides. There's also the 'sport' quattro manifold which works with the K27 hot side only AFAIK.

The other alternative is to klone what MarkH has done with his rampant Garrett/Turbonetics hybrid (which clones a K26 #8 hot side). He has a tried and trusted configuration that you can copy.

In all cases you'd be looking at non standard airbox modifications - and for Mark's conversion there is a helluvalot of work required in copying the installation to his high standard.


Cheers,

Paul

[Doug_RS2]

Mmmm - I was hoping to keep the RS2 manifold and replace the RS2 turbo with a straight bolt-on replacement turbo that would get up higher than 360, closer to 400.

There aren't any modified RS2 turbos that will take it up towards the 400?

What were the turbos Martyn or Mihnea were talking about a while back? Whats the limits of those?

[S2central.net]

UIVMM, the RS2 manifold will accept a K26 hot side of some variety, so a K26 or K26/K27 is possible. This is what TomC is running on his 3B.

There are so many damn options, it gets confusing to keep all the snippets of info in my head. What day is it ? I'll have to sit down with Mihnea and produce a ready reckoner or matrix of some sort which defines the compatibility of the most popular configurations that can be shared.



Paul

[akojacko]

paul , and everyone thanks 4 the replies. good stuff. paul i am at 380bhp at the moment , 94 aby, k26/27 w/c hybrid turbo with green injectors and rs2 manifold etc etc,(see profile) previous owner was going to do 430 bhp mod , but had spend 8k plus already on car so didn't bother . he told me that the next 50 hp or so is v. expensive due to parts. he said i would need to have cam , pistons, s1 manifold and intercooler , er i think that was it , he said turbo was up 4 the job . he estimated a cost of about 3.5k to do the mods. what i am thinking is he correct in what info he has past on. ohh also has a bailies dump valve which would really need to be improved say to a viper from AMD. if all above is in fact correct and relevant could this guy david in sheffied be trusted to take on the work??. thanks again for help . much appreciated.

[Doug_RS2]

ako - nice spec - any receipts for that turbo of yours - how much was it?

[APNess]

Ako - is that the car which was up for sale at around £12.5k earlier on this year? Any performance figures for it?

As for Underwood - best to ring him - I think he would be fine with anything mechanical-wise, but leave the remapping etc to Paul N/Mihnea - as mentioned, not many think Superchips are much cop. Same for AMD, and they recently told me they refer the mechanical upgrades to QST (Kim Collins). He will be able to do the work for sure, but you will pay more for the 'privelige'.


PJ

[S2central.net]

Where was it mapped for 380bhp out of interest - who did that ?

My advice is that standard pistons are good for 500bhp.

Uprated CONRODs are much more important when torque is in excess of 550Nm. Standard conrods will bend before the pistons start to complain.

Not sure how much gain the so called 'S1' manifold would provide - given the scarey price its use is questionable. Probably flows a little better than the RS2 item. It might be worth having some mild cylinder head porting work to match the manifold apertures - the domain of specialists only.

A 5bar competition fuel pump and FPR are recommended.

An RS2 intercooler would be regarded as the minimum spec for anything over 300bhp.

An RS2 MAF might make some gains also as it flows more air than the S2 item.

I see no point at all in shiny dump/bypass valves of any sort - total waste of money in my opinion - the recent plastic ones made by Bosch are more than adequate. Plumbing in a second one might give some extra relief due to the sheer amount of air being moved by the turbo.

Paul

[akojacko]

doug have the receipt for turbo bought in april 2001and price was £940 inc vat exchange from dialynx performance ltd.

apness yes its is that car went 220 miles to glasgow 4 it!!!. no offcial performance figures but feels god damn quick .have the dyno printouts etc (will post some time) which was done at AMD and included chip and remap. official 380.1bhp. and 381.5 lbs ft torque. at 24deg and 1019 mb pressure. i know u lot seem to knock AMD but this was done in may 2001 and no probs yet , fingers crossed :eek2: .

and paul part of your question answered above. thanks 4 that. by the way what is 550nm in lb ft ?? also are the con rods expensive.? whilst on the subject as such i think the car has the standard original clutch !! does this need to be upgraded at all. if not how long do they usually last.??.

[APNess]

My remap was done by AMD - they claimed some interesting figures for the car.

First of all, they said they measured 256bhp/294lb ft torque - unless Optimax (which the car has run on for about 1 1/2 years) adds 26hp, this is a bit optimistic for a stock ABY. Saying that, the stock torque on ABY is 280lb ft on overboost, so it's not *that* far out.

The 'after' figures are what beggars belief though - 312bhp/319lb ft - according to Paul N and Mihnea, it's not really possible to get more than 300hp out of a chip alone, no other mods.

Plus, they did the R/Road report in 5th gear, and the car shows 197 bhp@wheels - down 114bhp, but like I say, that was done in 5th, so until I can get another report done (and it is faster/smoother/much less lag now thanks to cat bypass and stainless exhaust) I don't really know what the car is putting out.

"Not fast enough!" my seat of pants gauge says, so I'll be going down the route you've got into with that car - though not bothered about going over 400bhp - budgeting around £3k to get it up to 360-380bhp. Early next year... Maybe, just maybe, 6 pots go on before that, but doubt it.

:wacked:

[Mihnea]

Hey guys, just came back from France tuning 2 RS2s so I apologize for all the unanswered emails but I was so far away from any civilization that even email was impossible for me....

Originally posted by S2central.net

Not sure how much gain the so called 'S1' manifold would provide - given the scarey price its use is questionable. Probably flows a little better than the RS2 item. It might be worth having some mild cylinder head porting work to match the manifold apertures - the domain of specialists only.

Umm, well, the S1 manifold or the original sport quattro one (slightly cheaper from Audi than the S1 from MTM) simply helps getting past the 420 HP limit that the RS2 EM has. I mean one can go further with an RS2 EM and associated #8 K26 hot side and I know for a fact someone who did 480HP on a K26/27/29 with #8 hot side and RS2 EM but this means doing things at 130% and the proof of that is that very unfortunately, I had predicted that engine's death from the very start.... and BTW, it has blown at only 455HP, not 480.... so this is food for thought guys!!!!

I see no point at all in shiny dump/bypass valves of any sort - total waste of money in my opinion - the recent plastic ones made by Bosch are more than adequate. Plumbing in a second one might give some extra relief due to the sheer amount of air being moved by the turbo.

Paul

Totally agreed with that!

By the way, @Dougal: I still have no clue of when "that" will happen but it will soon, don't worry, you'll be the first one posted about that! And anyway, an RS2-ed car if decatted can do 370-ish HP, possibly a little more and 500-ish Nm of torque with 1.8 Bar overboost.

Cheers all,


Mihnea

[Josh-stateside]

Hmm.. lots of nice info...

It's awesome to read all this info. Nothing quite more appreciated than honest down to earth responses.

First

Paul:

What would be the "most recent bypass vavle from Bosch"?

Mihnea:

sorry I have yet to respond to you.. I have a bunch of stuff going on.

I am curious, if I were to buy one of your chips: Instead of shipping my ecu to you. Could you just burn me a chip and send it to me ? and I will let a place in my area soldier it in. I can source the 3 bar sensor here in the states too.

However.. I am tempting to wait on this thought Till I get the upgraded Turbo setup.

I am probably going to source a used k27 from a '91 - '94 911 C2 3.3L and 3.6L Turbos(rebuild it of course). From the pictures I have seen of them, it looks like it will work nicely with a Rs2 exhaust manifold. There's a porsche shop in my area that actually might let me borrow one ;-) for test fitting purposes.

I also have a 7a cam gear waiting to be installed.

The Rs2 MAF is the same as a Porsche 968
I believe the porsche price is cheaper.

The only difference between the aby/3b/ and the adu is the "rat shield" from what I heard. A little less flow restriction basically.


Also noted the Porsche Gt2 Orange injectors are cheaper than the Rs2 green injectors but unlike the orange injectors which have 4 point holes the Gt2 one's have only one.


I will have to do some more research before I commit to anything.

All considering I will only have the 4:11 5 speed tranny installed. So.. I will be happy with anywhere above 300hp.



Cheers
Josh

[Josh-stateside]

Actually as I look at the k27s from the porsches a bit more, I am noticing more differences..

There is no nipple for the waste gate frequency vavle.
I think it's for the waste gate vavle, getting late here in the states, truthfully I can't quite remember exactly.

There is one on the US ebay right now..
If you were to get curious some decent pics..

Search for porsche and KKK

Cheers
Josh

[Mihnea]

@Josh: a few things:

-first, I could send you a chipset by mail and you'd have it installed, that would be no problem, but only if this is for a "stage 1" type of chip, otherwise I'm sorry but I don't have "one size fits it all" chips, especially for K27 turbos, here we're getting into the dangerous part of tuning where lots of people use RS2 chips or similar when these setups only require one thing: custom tuning. So, sorry but if you want a chip for a K27 I don't have it "off the shelf" and I don't intend to either....

-then, careful with the K27s from 911s because those cars used to have VERY CRAPPY K27s until 1980-odd, which had the part number starting with 5322 instead of 5327 as all the recent K27s which are good. To put it short, an old K22 (that's the real name it deserves) was far worse than a K26 from an Audi 5000 turbo for instance, and that K26 was already a turbo with which HP was limited to barely 300.....

-MAFs: the RS2 MAF is electrically the very same as an S2 and the slight HP gain it claims over the S2 item is only due to the different rat shields, that's all. The ECUs however use the MAF signal differently and an S2 ECU can't use RS2 chips without mods, otherwise the engine will be dumping fuel in the exhaust!

HTH and I hope you're not offended by my unwillingness to make "mail order" chips for all setups but this is purely impossible, or otherwise I'd have to make chips for you that run excessively rich and aren't optimal, which is not what I call tuning. Real tuning is only made in the car, off the shelf works good as well but only for bone stock engines...

Mihnea

[S2central.net]

JOSH -

The most recent Bosch TBV that suits the S2/RS2 has the Audi part number 034 145 710B (Note the B for Bravo - this part supercedes the original which had an A for Alpha suffix).

Dunno the Bosch PartNo offhand...

CHeers,

Paul