big end knocking question..

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  • avants2turbo
    S2Forum Extremist
    • Feb 2008
    • 1287
    • Country: England

    #1

    big end knocking question..

    gents, head gasket died on the avant, water into cylinder no. 5, the engine was run for a min or so and the tapping started, my mechanic said it was the big end on no.5 because of the water in the cylinder, does this sound right?
    What bearings should i use, glycol ones and do i have to replace the mains at the same time?
  • driftin jo
    S2Forum Fiend
    • Sep 2007
    • 2222
    • Country: United Kingdom

    #2
    How much water in there ? you might have bent a rod due to hydraulic lock !
    That would explain the tapping
    don't see why it would have any affect on a bearing , unless it hydraulic locked and the excess force killed it but then the bearing would be the least of your worries !

    Comment

    • avants2turbo
      S2Forum Extremist
      • Feb 2008
      • 1287
      • Country: England

      #3
      Originally posted by driftin jo
      How much water in there ? you might have bent a rod due to hydraulic lock !
      That would explain the tapping
      don't see why it would have any affect on a bearing , unless it hydraulic locked and the excess force killed it but then the bearing would be the least of your worries !
      Well not to much water, we presurised the expansion tank to see where the water leak i had was coming from as there was no visable signs of the water, we then did a compression test and i had a fine water mist coming out of no. 5 plug hole (definately water not petrol) so im guessin the water from that. It sounded typically like a light big end tapping, ive taken the head off today, the bores all look perfect, still got the criss cross honing marks, no scoring, there was how ever some marks on the piston crown at the highest point (flat part by the inlet valves) and the corresponding part on the head had matching marks, both very light raised and pitted bits that match each other (if u know what i mean) once the head was off i wound the crank round by hand and all piston return to the highest and lowest points in the bore. The head gasket was what appeared to be a fibre type one as apose to the all metal one i took out of my other engine.

      What would you suggest i do next?

      Comment

      • Flat on my back
        S2Forum Fiend
        • Jan 2007
        • 2449
        • Country: United Kingdom

        #4
        .

        You need to check the concentricity of the big end and crank journal to be sure no damage has been done.

        When you strip the engine examine the bearings that come out from that rod.
        Carlos.

        On the look out for less bits for my s2 saloon project. Now supporting myself by shooting for my food. www.airgunforum.co.uk

        Comment

        • avants2turbo
          S2Forum Extremist
          • Feb 2008
          • 1287
          • Country: England

          #5
          Originally posted by Flat on my back
          You need to check the concentricity of the big end and crank journal to be sure no damage has been done.

          When you strip the engine examine the bearings that come out from that rod.
          And how do i do the check for concentricity? Not sure i know what you mean...

          What will damage to the bearing look like?

          Comment

          • Kieron20V
            S2Forum Extremist
            • Mar 2008
            • 1505
            • Home: England Current: United Kingdom

            #6
            Originally posted by avants2turbo
            And how do i do the check for concentricity? Not sure i know what you mean...

            What will damage to the bearing look like?
            To check for concentricity, measure the diameter of the journal at different locations, ie 45 degrees, I believe there are limits in the bently manual, but theyre not vast.


            Bearing damage would typicaly be non uniform wear, and any knocking would indicate wear through to the soft metal underneath, which would look like shiny isolated areas instead of even wear all over the bearing.


            Before doing a complete stripdown, I would pull the sump off and see if there is actually any play in the big ends, cant hurt.


            Kieron.
            1994 URS4 Avant RS2+

            Comment

            • avants2turbo
              S2Forum Extremist
              • Feb 2008
              • 1287
              • Country: England

              #7
              sorry for all the dumb questions, but with the sump off, how do i check for play in the big ends?
              Last edited by avants2turbo; 30 May 2009, 23:42.

              Comment

              • Kieron20V
                S2Forum Extremist
                • Mar 2008
                • 1505
                • Home: England Current: United Kingdom

                #8
                If its knocking badly, you would be able to move the big end of the conrod on its crank pin, if so then you deff need new bearings, and possibly a regrind on the crank journals depending on the condition, still, I dont see how a little water could have ruined the bearing that fast, without hydro locking it anyway. The rings should have kept the water out of the sump and the water should have been blown out on the exhaust stroke.

                Was there any damage between a water passage and an oil passage on the head gasket? If water was getting directly into the sump then It would only be a matter of time before the bearings complained.]

                Kieron.
                1994 URS4 Avant RS2+

                Comment

                • avants2turbo
                  S2Forum Extremist
                  • Feb 2008
                  • 1287
                  • Country: England

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Kieron20V
                  If its knocking badly, you would be able to move the big end of the conrod on its crank pin, if so then you deff need new bearings, and possibly a regrind on the crank journals depending on the condition, still, I dont see how a little water could have ruined the bearing that fast, without hydro locking it anyway. The rings should have kept the water out of the sump and the water should have been blown out on the exhaust stroke.

                  Was there any damage between a water passage and an oil passage on the head gasket? If water was getting directly into the sump then It would only be a matter of time before the bearings complained.]

                  Kieron.
                  I havent taken the block out of the car yet, but there doesnt appear to be any contamination in the oil..

                  Comment

                  • newsh
                    S2Forum Obsessed
                    • Aug 2003
                    • 16226
                    • Country: United Kingdom

                    #10
                    Could be a small end? if the piston has been touching the head then something is worn enough to allow the piston to come up higher than normal.

                    S2 Coupe 3B Project


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                    S2 Avant

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                    Comment

                    • avants2turbo
                      S2Forum Extremist
                      • Feb 2008
                      • 1287
                      • Country: England

                      #11
                      Originally posted by newsh
                      Could be a small end? if the piston has been touching the head then something is worn enough to allow the piston to come up higher than normal.
                      That was my immidiate thought, and presumably that will show up as brass filings in the sump? If the small end is the case, what do i need to replace?

                      I do have a complete spare engine i took out of the avant im breaking, reason for not using that one is the bores are all quiet badly scored and all the pistons/head face have the same "pitting" as on cylinder no.5 on my engine, but the head looks like its been skimmed on that engine

                      Whats the best way to check the small end?

                      Comment

                      • Knight Rider S4
                        S2Forum Possessed
                        • Mar 2005
                        • 3541
                        • Country: Scotland

                        #12
                        Out curiosity..Did you see what the oil pressure was when this knocking started?
                        93 S2 Avant Parting
                        91 URQ RR
                        02 A4 tdi Avant

                        Comment

                        • avants2turbo
                          S2Forum Extremist
                          • Feb 2008
                          • 1287
                          • Country: England

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Knight Rider S4
                          Out curiosity..Did you see what the oil pressure was when this knocking started?
                          Nope, turned it off as soon as it happened

                          Comment

                          • europeanme
                            S2Forum Possessed
                            • Oct 2005
                            • 3817
                            • Country: United Kingdom

                            #14
                            this makes un-nerving reading....as my avant is loosing water, not much, but it still needs topping up every other week..and it was just a lose of coolant made you check the compression.....or did you get any other symptoms?
                            running warmer than usual??....

                            Comment

                            • avants2turbo
                              S2Forum Extremist
                              • Feb 2008
                              • 1287
                              • Country: England

                              #15
                              have been losing water for a fair while, not alot, but still had to top it up now and again, running norm temps. Started developing a hessitance, got worse, then checked for the coolant leak by presurising the cooling system (tool that screws in place of the expansion tank with a hand pump and guage)
                              Just happened to have just done a compression test, couldnt see any loss of coolant
                              And the guage wasnt indicating a loss of pressure, untill we deceided to turn the motor over, and water mist came out of plug hole no 5.
                              The mistake was putting it back together and running it!

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