Alt.Hybrid Turbo Idea

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  • S2central.net
    Retired OG Mod
    • Jul 2003
    • 16590
    • Country: Northern Ireland

    #1

    Alt.Hybrid Turbo Idea

    Its well known that the stock K24 turbo on the S2 doesn't have enough puff to make 300bhp, so the safe limit on chipped engines is in the region of 270-280bhp with 410-430Nm of torque. Maybe a little more power on decatted cars with a sports exhaust will get towards 290bhp and *maybe* an RS2 intercooler along with a decent coldair intake and cone filter will get tantilisingly close to 300bhp.

    The RS2 turbo is a well known tried and tested conversion - capable of 360-380bhp with 500-600Nm readily available depending on mapping choices. But this needs the RS2 manifold, intercooler, green injectors and RS2/7A camshafts. It could cost anywhere from £750-1500 which I ain't got quite frankly.

    I've got to thinking about an alternative hybrid turbo that has the capacity to break the 300bhp barrier without all the RS2 parts. I know the stock S2 manifold is good for ~330bhp. I also want a small enough turbo that ensures minimum lag and great driveability for daily duties. The RS2 setup inherently has more lag than the K24 turbo.

    My goal is 450Nm of torque (within limits of the 6-cog box) and a smidge over 300bhp with the standard airbox and intercooler if possible. I absolutely don't want to get into RS2 manifolds, green injectors and funky camshafts on this.

    My idea is to create a hybrid turbo with a K24 hot side and a K26 cold side. This assumes they can be bolted onto the same centre section with no drama. It also assumes the K24 hot side can provide enough energy to drive the K26 compressor into territory where it can easily push more air than the standard turbo - at increased efficiencies (resulting in lower air temps) ... that combines to produce more torque and more power.

    Any views from the other turbo heads out there ?

    Maybe there are other variants of the K24 which have a larger cold side than
    ours (from a Volvo 850 T5 maybe) ?

    The cost should be around £250-£350 for a turbo specialist to do the work. More like it - plus time into developing suitably tweaked chips

    I'll have to dig out some K26 compressor maps for an investigation. Watch this space...
    Paul Nugent
    Webmaster http://S2central.net
    Administrator http://S2forum.com

    1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
    2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
    2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

    Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

    There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't
  • porkkis
    S2Forum Extremist
    • Aug 2003
    • 1994
    • Country: Finland

    #2
    I've just today asked a Finnish turbo expert firm what they think about my idea of combining Volvo 60R K24-7400 internals to Audi casings. I can report when I get an answer.
    The new style 7400 series should be quite a bit better as with same dimensions it can make around 350hp out of the Volvo engine on its limits. Volvo do use variable cams and the engine is also a bit bigger but after all this could be the way for a slightly beefier turbo without sacrifice in the low range output.
    -

    Comment

    • S2central.net
      Retired OG Mod
      • Jul 2003
      • 16590
      • Country: Northern Ireland

      #3
      Porkkis - we must have eat the same thing for dinner last night Please let me know what those guys reckon and if you can get any dimensional info and a compressor map would be awesome.

      The IVG strikes again huh


      Paul
      Paul Nugent
      Webmaster http://S2central.net
      Administrator http://S2forum.com

      1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
      2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
      2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

      Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

      There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

      Comment

      • s2driveruk
        Super Moderator
        • Jul 2003
        • 12696
        • Country: England

        #4
        would be VERY interested to retain as much stock stuff as possible, as we spoke about on saturday Paul, I'm the same, cannot go down the £2.5-£3 route of a full on rs2 upgrade.

        Also, I do like the quicker arrivial of useful (homefry) torque from the K24 but having it with a bit more punch and puff would be good too.

        Keep me posted, my turbo has done 160k miles and probably could do with a proper rebuild but if this type of thing is possible, i may well choose that option instead!

        Cheers,

        David
        sigpic

        1992 3b S2 Coupe

        Comment

        • porkkis
          S2Forum Extremist
          • Aug 2003
          • 1994
          • Country: Finland

          #5
          Paul, hope you enjoyed your ham+blue cheese salad as I did.

          I didn't mention in the post, but I asked the map in the email.
          -

          Comment

          • porkkis
            S2Forum Extremist
            • Aug 2003
            • 1994
            • Country: Finland

            #6
            The inlet diameter seems to be 46mm and outlet 51mm.

            Here are some pictures of the Volvo unit with its rather strange casings but it's only the internals I'm after!




            Last edited by porkkis; 28 July 2004, 14:24.
            -

            Comment

            • Jamo
              Retired OG Mod
              • Mar 2004
              • 21750
              • Country: United Kingdom

              #7
              Paul are you telephatically reading my thoughts! hehe

              In theory though i would have thought you wouldn't need a K26 cold side.

              If you used a K24 exhaust (hot, probably with next A/R ratio up) with the K24 Compressor (cold) with the same RS2 turbine machined in (K26) i would have though this would do the job nice.

              The K26 cold side would be easier to do mind, the main factor here is choice of trim to negate turbo lag.

              What ya think?

              Comment

              • s2driveruk
                Super Moderator
                • Jul 2003
                • 12696
                • Country: England

                #8
                not wrong about those strange casings....
                sigpic

                1992 3b S2 Coupe

                Comment

                • Jamo
                  Retired OG Mod
                  • Mar 2004
                  • 21750
                  • Country: United Kingdom

                  #9
                  Do the later volvo use the KKK series? the old ones used Garrett and some other used T03 compressors.
                  Volvo used to change their mind a hell of a lot BTDT, made my life hell with my old volvo baby.

                  Comment

                  • twoqu
                    S2Forum Possessed
                    • Sep 2003
                    • 3103

                    #10
                    Guys,
                    Like all good ideas, it's been done before. MTM used a similar combo on their early S2 conversions (282ps) "....K24 - turbinenrad and einem K26 - Verdicttarrad". Excuse the quote from a German mag. I also have just inherited a knackered K26/24 hybrid by AET. The question is going to be what comp wheel/housing to use. There are at least two in the Audi range and indeed others that might be more suited. I believe that the centre housing is common, the bearings have different id to accomodate the difference in shaft diameter. Obviously this would indicate that comp wheels would not be interchangable. Another issue is that the inlet at the turbo is going to be 50mm not 55mm, so a sleeve will be needed.
                    I don't think Mihnea rates the widely available Audi K26 cold sides. To be viable it would be helpful to source those parts economically.
                    I do intend to dismantle the AET one further. Due to wear the comp wheel has touched the housing. However I may be able to determine what components have been used - i.e. whether it is K26 shaft and wheel or K24 with K26 comp wheel.

                    Comment

                    • Jamo
                      Retired OG Mod
                      • Mar 2004
                      • 21750
                      • Country: United Kingdom

                      #11
                      Originally posted by twoqu
                      Guys,
                      Like all good ideas, it's been done before. MTM used a similar combo on their early S2 conversions (282ps) "....K24 - turbinenrad and einem K26 - Verdicttarrad". Excuse the quote from a German mag. I also have just inherited a knackered K26/24 hybrid by AET. The question is going to be what comp wheel/housing to use. There are at least two in the Audi range and indeed others that might be more suited. I believe that the centre housing is common, the bearings have different id to accomodate the difference in shaft diameter. Obviously this would indicate that comp wheels would not be interchangable. Another issue is that the inlet at the turbo is going to be 50mm not 55mm, so a sleeve will be needed.
                      I don't think Mihnea rates the widely available Audi K26 cold sides. To be viable it would be helpful to source those parts economically.
                      I do intend to dismantle the AET one further. Due to wear the comp wheel has touched the housing. However I may be able to determine what components have been used - i.e. whether it is K26 shaft and wheel or K24 with K26 comp wheel.
                      Keep us informed i love turbo specs!!

                      Comment

                      • Sidspud
                        S2Forum Extremist
                        • Jul 2003
                        • 1223
                        • Home: Scotland Current: United Nations

                        #12
                        I'd be well up for one of these if it comes about. I just want over 300BHP so that I don't have to worry about EVOs and Scoobys. I shouldn't have to worry about them at the moment, but I like to be certain.
                        ex '93 Avant owner

                        Comment

                        • Jamo
                          Retired OG Mod
                          • Mar 2004
                          • 21750
                          • Country: United Kingdom

                          #13
                          Has anybody got the spec of the turbo in the Nothelle conversion?

                          According to S2Central pages the turbine is smaller and the compressor large to reduce lag. Would be interesting to compare specs on that baby and is it as a basic start.

                          Comment

                          • S2central.net
                            Retired OG Mod
                            • Jul 2003
                            • 16590
                            • Country: Northern Ireland

                            #14
                            Yeah I found a compressor map for a KKK 2664 GA as fitted to the MC engine on SJM's site and it doesn't make for good reading. Hardly any better than K24 at the top end. The RS2 compressor is much better in that regard.

                            Seeing as the RS2 turbo uses a K24 cold side machined out to take a particular K26 wheel, I think that is a better bet - and we know the compressor map for that (KKK 2672 GGC) it would be a fine choice.

                            Maintaining the hotside of the K24 (assuming we have a common shaft thru a common centre section) will reduce lag and limit the ultimate capacity of the turbo (compared to special K26 #6 hotside used on RS2), but I suspect we could hit 300bhp on it.

                            So now it smells like we have to 'downgrade' an RS2 turbo (with a K24 hotside) instead of upgrading a K24 More homework required.

                            Will have to look at Volvo stuff properly...
                            Paul Nugent
                            Webmaster http://S2central.net
                            Administrator http://S2forum.com

                            1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                            2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                            2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                            Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                            There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

                            Comment

                            • S2central.net
                              Retired OG Mod
                              • Jul 2003
                              • 16590
                              • Country: Northern Ireland

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Jamo
                              Has anybody got the spec of the turbo in the Nothelle conversion?

                              According to S2Central pages the turbine is smaller and the compressor large to reduce lag. Would be interesting to compare specs on that baby and is it as a basic start.
                              The Nothelle conversions predated the RS2 and they claim approx 310-315bhp from memory so we could be on the right track here as the special RS2 compressor would not have been available to them for this !

                              I'll send a PM to Eric and see what numbers he can read off his turbo.


                              Paul
                              Paul Nugent
                              Webmaster http://S2central.net
                              Administrator http://S2forum.com

                              1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                              2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                              2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                              Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                              There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

                              Comment

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