any vr6 swapped S2's or CQ's out there?

[my2000apb]

like the title states, has anyone swapped a vr6 / vr6Turbo into an s2?

[Jamo]

Why on earth would you put a VR6 into an S2? seen it done on CQ's but not an original S2 I would take the I5 unit over the VR6 unit anyday of the week.

There's a couple of threads on motorgeeks where this has been done

[my2000apb]

ok ok, s2 or cq

[EspenW]

I don't understand the obsession with VR6 engines. They are nothing special at all. They can be made fast with turbos (like pretty much anything else), but in NA form, they are dogs. I was thoroughly unimpressed by a VR6 Corrado, totally unimpressed by a tuned VR6 in a Golf 2, not even impressed by a 3.0 VR6 with a GT35R in a Golf 3 (that particular engine has potential, though, as we only got 350whp @ 1.5bar, and it should produce much more).

[GazzaG60]

vr6=big 8v technology.

the reason the abf was detuned is so the vr6 was the most powerful.

if you are in the US. then ABA 16v turbo will do the job. or 1.8t or I5. id go 16v. try to get the weight off the nose.

[my2000apb]

I don't understand the obsession with VR6 engines. They are nothing special at all. They can be made fast with turbos (like pretty much anything else), but in NA form, they are dogs. I was thoroughly unimpressed by a VR6 Corrado, totally unimpressed by a tuned VR6 in a Golf 2, not even impressed by a 3.0 VR6 with a GT35R in a Golf 3 (that particular engine has potential, though, as we only got 350whp @ 1.5bar, and it should produce much more).

was that golf a 12v or 24v?

theres no way in hell id swap an NA vr6 engine into the CQ, the motor im compiling is a 2.8l block and crank ,new pistons and rods, with an r32 head and a 35R

[my2000apb]

vr6=big 8v technology.

the reason the abf was detuned is so the vr6 was the most powerful.

if you are in the US. then ABA 16v turbo will do the job. or 1.8t or I5. id go 16v. try to get the weight off the nose.

id never bother with a 12v VR, id go 16v/aba before i went 2v vr6

im looking to use a 24v 2.8L and push it back a few inches to help weight balance among a lot of relocations of items from the engine bay

[Foeglass]

you don't buy a vr6 for the speed but for the sound.
But you can't deny a vr6 with a nice exhaust sounds great.
have to admid a proper turbo'd Vr6 is a nice engine to have.

i had one myself still miss the car. but it all goes away once i step in the S2. :mischeif:

[EspenW]

was that golf a 12v or 24v?

theres no way in hell id swap an NA vr6 engine into the CQ, the motor im compiling is a 2.8l block and crank ,new pistons and rods, with an r32 head and a 35R

The turbo (and the two NA's) were all 12v.
We will test it again once the owner works the bugs out. Also, being in a FWD car on street tires, it could not pull more than 0.5G's of forward acceleration before it would spin, 0.5G is about what I pull in 4th gear in the family wagon, so that meant it felt more tame than it should. That same engine in a chassis with grip would probably be great

[EspenW]

you don't buy a vr6 for the speed but for the sound.
But you can't deny a vr6 with a nice exhaust sounds great.
have to admid a proper turbo'd Vr6 is a nice engine to have.

i had one myself still miss the car. but it all goes away once i step in the S2. :mischeif:

Agreed. As much as I dislike open air filters, a VR& with open filter and nice exhaust sounds fabulous. However, so does an I5 pushing well over 2bar and 7000rpm

[my2000apb]

The turbo (and the two NA's) were all 12v.
We will test it again once the owner works the bugs out. Also, being in a FWD car on street tires, it could not pull more than 0.5G's of forward acceleration before it would spin, 0.5G is about what I pull in 4th gear in the family wagon, so that meant it felt more tame than it should. That same engine in a chassis with grip would probably be great

yeah 24v vs. 12v is a huge difference, similar to the 10vT vs. 20vT, very evident the farther into rpm range you go

ok so several reasons why a vr6T cq will be better than the golf


24v >12v
245 cq tires and awd > fwd golf
hta35r>na 12/24v

im sure that the cq with 4 sticky tires will pull more than 0.5g forward

[URQguy]

When is the last time anybody here made 550whp on a bone stock 8v, 16v or 20v motor picked off the junkyard floor for 60 USD? I have yet to find a 20vt for that coin, yet I saw 3 of them with under 100k miles already pulled on the floor hte last time I went to the junkyard. All I would have to do is put them in a back of a truck and drive home. I use the lower aluminum pieces as a base for intake manifold I make, and it is always a good feeling when you just have to bend over, loosen a couple of allen bolts and remove the parts on the ground. I have seen VW FWD guys come to track days with a spare 12v in the back of the trailer in case the unthinkable happens. They swap them out in a couple of hours and keep motoring. When I lost a 20vt piston due to a faulty injector, I almost commited suicide. If it was a 12v, I would have not been in deep depression for 2 months, and simply would have swapped in a new motor

I love the I5 as much as the next guy. I got a 550whp version in my URQ, and and a few in other cars. That said, the VR6 is a cheaper way of getting to 550whp. You can do that on stock internals, a head spacer, headstuds, a cheap ATP 200$ cast manifold and a 35r.. People do it all day long in FWD cars. For every 500whp I5, there are a dozen 12v vr6t cars, and 3 24v vr6t cars. They may not have their place in competitive road racing, but they are a sweet motor for a street car. There is a replacement for displacment in turbochargers, but there is not a replacement for displacement plus turbos. They are a heavy engine, and the bias does get pretty extreme in small chassis cars that weigh only 3000 pounds. The CQ is heavy though, and the weight is not as significant. I think a URs6 avant with a healthy 12v making 500whp would be a great daily driver.

Both engines give me goosebumps at WOT, although I like the i5 at 8500 a bit more. Idle, and below 5000 goes to the vr6t though.

The vr6 is easy to work on too. There is a ton of space everywhere, the ability to put a Front mount radiato and IC, and cheap aftermarket.

[my2000apb]

When is the last time anybody here made 550whp on a bone stock 8v, 16v or 20v motor picked off the junkyard floor for 60 USD? I have yet to find a 20vt for that coin, yet I saw 3 of them with under 100k miles already pulled on the floor hte last time I went to the junkyard. All I would have to do is put them in a back of a truck and drive home. I use the lower aluminum pieces as a base for intake manifold I make, and it is always a good feeling when you just have to bend over, loosen a couple of allen bolts and remove the parts on the ground. I have seen VW FWD guys come to track days with a spare 12v in the back of the trailer in case the unthinkable happens. They swap them out in a couple of hours and keep motoring. When I lost a piston due to a faulty injector, I almost commited suicide. If it was a 12v, I would have not been in deep depression for 2 months, and simply would have swapped in a new motor I love the I5 as much as the next guy. I got a 550whp version in my URQ, and and a few in other cars. That said, the VR6 is a cheaper way of getting to 550whp. You can do that on stock internals, a head spacer, headstuds, a cheap ATP 200$ cast manifold and a 35r.. People do it all day long in FWD cars. For every 500whp I5, there are a dozen 12v vr6t cars, and 3 24v vr6t cars.

hahah well im going 24v so replacements wont be quite sooo cheap, but im going to build the bottom end first time around so hopefully there wont be that many replacements, that said you are correct in that no one / motor combo will make that 500 whp on a stock bottom end, and yes the 5cyl parts are a lot more loot than 5cylinder versions.

They may not have their place in competitive road racing, but they are a sweet motor for a street car. There is a replacement for displacment in turbochargers, but there is not a replacement for displacement plus turbos. They are a heavy engine, and the bias does get pretty extreme in small chassis cars that weigh only 3000 pounds. The CQ is heavy though, and the weight is not as significant. I think a URs6 avant with a healthy 12v making 500whp would be a great daily driver.

yes the cq is def one of the heavier small cars, im looking to push the motor back a few inches, right onto the firewall, ( no more heater core) to help the balance of the car, I think id rather have a lil bit heavier car with good f/r balance, also hank, id like to pick your brain, and see how feasible or not some of these things are, id like to move the alternator and battery to the back, mr2 pump in the back and radiator and aux h20 pump mounted in the rear with ducting in and out of radiator with push and pull fans on it.

yes I love the 3b in my 4kq, and I loved the 2.7tt in the s4, but alas my decision has been made, yes I picked the biggest and heaviest brick of them all ahah. The reason for choosing this motor is that I want to have a fun street/ drag/road car

I went away from I5 due to cost of parts , the 2.7tt is great but once you go to a much larger turbo, each snail is getting about 1.35L of displacement working for it so it becomes quite the boost spike / power surge coming out of the corners, so I wanted something that will flow a lot in the midrange and still make great power up top, where it seems the 2.7t is a great low end torque motor, and once you build it for bigpower the tq goes waaaay up the powerband.

Oh and only hank thinks 500 whp daily drivers should be the norm ahahahahhaah

Both engines give me goosebumps at WOT, although I like the i5 at 8500 a bit more. Idle, and below 5000 goes to the vr6t though. The vr6 is easy to work on too. There is a ton of space everywhere, the ability to put a Front mount radiato and IC, and cheap aftermarket.

yeah the packaging is great, its soo much easier to work on, the parts being right out in front of you its seems like a no brainer

[URQguy]

Moving accessories to the trunk is a good idea in any quattro car. The alternator has to be driven off of something, whethr a driveshaft or a crank pulley. The engine is always spinning, where the driveshafts stop for stoplights and traffic. It is hard to relocate alternators in street cars. Lots of vr6 guys swap in 8v alternators though, as they are significantly smaller and lighter, and bolt up just fine. Do a search on vwvortex for the correct PNs on serp belts and alternators. I have never been in a radiator in the trunk car that is very streetable.

The vr6 has it's place in quattro cars, but moving parts aroudn to manipulate it's bias for road racing is probably not a great idea. They are heavy engines, but not THAT much heavier than 20vt motors, and about equal to a v6tt. The critics here act like they are 300 pounds heavier. That is not the case.

To continue a bit on the debate, while 550whp is cheapest on the 12v, once you have to build it, or any other 24v, the i5 starts to look attractive again. That makes 700whp cheaper on 20vt/24vt while the 12v starts to get expensive again, as the head needs major work to flow those levels. THe vr6 also has a very big Surface Area to seal, and the headgasket is a weak link as the power levels increase. People make 800whp on 12vs, but I bet they have more into the motor than 24vt guys do at a cost of reliability.

The 12v motors trump the 10v motors in the fact that they are cross flow motors. They flow WAY more per cylinder than 10v guys do. There are tons of cams available and oversized valves to make them flow well.

Hank

[my2000apb]

Moving accessories to the trunk is a good idea in any quattro car. The alternator has to be driven off of something, whethr a driveshaft or a crank pulley. The engine is always spinning, where the driveshafts stop for stoplights and traffic. It is hard to relocate alternators in street cars. Lots of vr6 guys swap in 8v alternators though, as they are significantly smaller and lighter, and bolt up just fine. Do a search on vwvortex for the correct PNs on serp belts and alternators. I have never been in a radiator in the trunk car that is very streetable.

The vr6 has it's place in quattro cars, but moving parts aroudn to manipulate it's bias for road racing is probably not a great idea. They are heavy engines, but not THAT much heavier than 20vt motors, and about equal to a v6tt. The critics here act like they are 300 pounds heavier. That is not the case.

To continue a bit on the debate, while 550whp is cheapest on the 12v, once you have to build it, or any other 24v, the i5 starts to look attractive again. That makes 700whp cheaper on 20vt/24vt while the 12v starts to get expensive again, as the head needs major work to flow those levels. THe vr6 also has a very big Surface Area to seal, and the headgasket is a weak link as the power levels increase. People make 800whp on 12vs, but I bet they have more into the motor than 24vt guys do at a cost of reliability.

The 12v motors trump the 10v motors in the fact that they are cross flow motors. They flow WAY more per cylinder than 10v guys do. There are tons of cams available and oversized valves to make them flow well.

Hank

So as far as moving the alternator, I know the crank is constantly driven and the driveshaft isn’t. the car is not going to be a street car, its really going to be a trackcar that I will get registered and inspected, not to be driven much on the street, we live out in the woods and would mostly be street driven for diagnostic purposes and the occasional hell ride of fun!! The car will spend almost no to zero time idling and not moving. I think it would be better for balance still to run the full sized alternator and fullsized battery in the back, the battery would be able to support the very short amount of time where the alternator may not be spinning.

Ok , so first paragraph you say moving the accessories is a good indea in any Quattro car, the second paragraph, you say moving parts around to manipulate its bias ISNT a good idea. So which is it? Hhaha

Ok so onto the motor decision, yes the 20v/24v will start making power at a similar usd/hp ratio. The 12v can do it but its becomes more expensive. Isn’t chris at USP in florida running a 12vT on e85?

So part of the 24v reasoning is the flow at lower rpm levels, I want a tq/power curve that is nice and smooth, not a late big power surge. The 20vt can make the 600 whp just like the 24v can we both know that. Say they are both making max power at 7500, power at 4k rpm will be stronger with the 24 than the 20v. does that make sense? I relate it a lot to the flow arguments when b5 s4 gt turbos were coming out, everyone complained about horrible “lag” of big boost/full boost, though not realizing they are making waaaay more power at 20 psi on gt’s vs the 26 on k04’s.


Any chance you have similar dynos for 35r’s on 20v/24v? itd be a good overlay but obv. Theres a lot of other circumstances