Audi 200 3B tuning, change ECU?

[TH_Trinity]

think you have to do some more homework; to get the 450 hp.... rebuild the engine,some custom EM( wagner EM), and some bigger injektors, bigger turbo+++;bigger piping for the exosgasses.. then you have to work out witch engine eltronic you need.......

I am doing most of that, i just didn't list every part, nut and bolt i have bought since my question is about the ECU and the wiring.

I am partly rebuilding the engine, i am going for a custom EM and DP, im gonna run 440cc/42lb injectors @ 4 bar FP at 1barA, witch really makes them 510cc/48.5lb injectors, i dont have all the numbers for you right now since the turbo is custom but the A/R Ratio is .43, 48lbs/min and 51/70mm wheels, why do i need bigger exhaust?? the original 2.5" exhaust flows good enough for 450hp... i already typed im going for AAN motronic.

440cc's don't flow enough for 450hp. Perhaps 430hp or so.
Also, there are no specs posted on the turbo... "Custom BW turbo" does not tell much. Not to mention the stock intercooler is pretty useless...

As said, running 440cc/42lb injectors @ 4 bar FP at 1barA, witch really makes them 510cc/48.5lb injectors

The intercooler is gonna be replaced with a 610x160x90mm long B&P, custom welded alu IC.

Going above 400hp your MAF won't last etc... and those "chips" are very suspicious to say the least. There are not a lot of people who know how to map the stock ECU over 400hp.

Why wont the MAF last? As long as you mount it securely and dont leave it hanging the MAF will work great.

I have personally removed various adjustable FPR's from over 10 cars because they could not maintain constant pressure.
Fit 7A FPR.

Aeromotives FPR are crap? Hmm, noted 7A FPR



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EDIT:

Did i or did i not understand the pinout?

[Rocco]

are you sure about the oem exhaust sistem is enough for 450cv?

try to do the pin swap,it is easy,i did it 3 weekd ago

[prj]

I am doing most of that, i just didn't list every part, nut and bolt i have bought since my question is about the ECU and the wiring.

I am partly rebuilding the engine, i am going for a custom EM and DP, im gonna run 440cc/42lb injectors @ 4 bar FP at 1barA, witch really makes them 510cc/48.5lb injectors, i dont have all the numbers for you right now since the turbo is custom but the A/R Ratio is .43, 48lbs/min and 51/70mm wheels, why do i need bigger exhaust?? the original 2.5" exhaust flows good enough for 450hp... i already typed im going for AAN motronic.

Why wont the MAF last? As long as you mount it securely and dont leave it hanging the MAF will work great.

Aeromotives FPR are crap? Hmm, noted 7A FPR

440cc injectors @ 4.2 bar will be 100% IDC at 420-430 hp.
I hope you made a typo, but 0.43 A/R exhaust housing is way too small for this engine. Should be more like 0.82A/R for your power target.
Original exhaust will start restricting heavily after 380hp.
Stock MAF will start breaking at 400-450hp.

Just out of interest - how many of these cars have you taken past 400hp?
You seem to stating many things as facts, though from what you say it seems you have never been "there".

[caterpillar]

i love this forum!!!!!! for the 400-550 hp there are alot of topic's how about this....and for the 2500ccm 5 pot
you have all the help here.!!

[TH_Trinity]

True, but with the turbo pressure at for example 1 bar boost (2barA), makes the injectors run on 5.2 bar (to take your number) the FPR is a rising scale 1:1 to pressure.

Nope, im running .43 A/R, that makes it produce 500hp in theory all maxed out, but since im not porting my top or doing anything with my intake manifold, I aim lower hp.

I dont know the exact number where org. EM will struggle, but im making custom EM to 5-1 stainless steel.

I still can't understand why it will fail, is it turbulent air that wil kill it? If you think about the mesh, its already gone.


And mostly important and the reason of this thread, earlier i stated some questions about pinout, did i understand or did i fail on it?

[OT:]
I personally have not tuned a single one, im trying for the first time to tune my own car after seen and assisted some projects come alive and really gives a kick. I really understand why you are so sceptical about me as the new guy stating stuff, but im not trying to be a smartass. Im just tired see people uses 10-20,000 dollars++ reaching 500hp on a turbocharged inline 5 with all those expensive stuff..

Why do you really need that nice EM to 1500 dollar, when you can make your own for say.. 300 dollar? Sure it isnt the best flow and havent been tested on a fancy computer and in a labratory.
Why do you need to buy sputter bearings, when OEM is good enough? Sure you cant use this on a track hammering the RPM limit almost in a straight hour, but thats not what im planning for my car.
Why do you need titanium valve springs? Sure it makes revving to 8000rpm, maybe 9000 rpm but I dont need it.
Why do i need to port my top? Sure i miss out horsepower and momentum, maybe also later spoolup-time, but for 2500 dollar? i'll rather save it on something else.
[/OT]
Enough off-topic..

Again, im not trying to be a smartass and a troll. I just wants to prove that its possible to get some punch in your car without using a fortune.
I shall review what i type now on, so we dont get off in a fight here. No-one wants that.

When I get my car up and running, you will be the first to get pictures and dyno-papers. For all i know, maybe i'll end up on a much lower numbers. Maybe it will work as i hope for. Time will tell.

[newsh]

It can't be .43 A/R for 450HP, maybe its 1.43? (or maybe its .43 coldside A/R?)

[S2central.net]

Above ~400bhp, the hotwire MAF takes serious punishment with the sheer blast of air whoosing through it - lots of people have experienced this before - the hotwire literally gets ripped off by the airflow. A few workarounds exist - some better than others...

1 - spend lots of money replacing MAFs whenever
2 - spend lots of money on aftermarket ECU that runs MAFless i.e a speed density system then more time/money mapping with it
3 - spend lots of braincells recalibrating your ECU to work with bigger / better MAF such as hotfilm variety which doesnt suffer this problem

AFAIK - prj is the only person to have cracked #3 from 1st principles

Oh and BTW - the OE bearings for RS2 and late AAN/ABY are in fact 'sputter' - this is no accident - they are available from Glyco, KS etc

FInally - I admire your enthusiasm for wanting to do this yourself and agree that most of us don't need to spend silly $$$$ on titanium springs etc... I am not trying to put you off - except to say that sticking with Motronic means you have a mountain of knowledge to climb for ECU mapping - or you just accept that you will need the services of someone to customise that for your needs... without spending the earth.... If you are one who feels the need to tweak and adjust by yourself - go shopping for aftermarket ECU.

[TH_Trinity]

Thanks! I really dident know that, but i think im still gonna run Motronic, and a MAF.. but ill definitly look into it. it has to be a way somehow.

Ahh, but i think an RS2 is some more a performance car than a old 200. Plus, times changes and things improves.

Thank you, im getting tired see all my buddies get good engine builds and i dont do anything with mine, so its time to bounce back

If it dont work out, i just have to wire up my 034 stage C EFI

[driftin jo]

True, but with the turbo pressure at for example 1 bar boost (2barA), makes the injectors run on 5.2 bar (to take your number) the FPR is a rising scale 1:1 to pressure.

.

You have this all wrong, at 1 bar of boost the fuel pressure at the injector is indeed 1 bar more but this does not increase the flow as the injector is now injecting fuel against a 1 bar (2bar absolute) pressure. The FPR is there to maintain pressure differential of 4 bar or 4.2 or whatever. At idle you have negative pressure in the IM so it then lowers the pressure below 4 bar so that the flow from the injector is always the same for the given injector time. The FPR is NOT a rising rate fuel pressure regulator at all it is a static fuel pressure regulator. O and 1:1 is static NOT rising scale.

[TH_Trinity]

Right, my bad.
Ill try them and see at which point i max them out.

I feel the more people i ask, the more different answers i gets.



But can I conclude with understood the schematics then..?

[prj]

True, but with the turbo pressure at for example 1 bar boost (2barA), makes the injectors run on 5.2 bar (to take your number) the FPR is a rising scale 1:1 to pressure.

Completely wrong. Driftin jo explained why.

Nope, im running .43 A/R, that makes it produce 500hp in theory all maxed out, but since im not porting my top or doing anything with my intake manifold, I aim lower hp.

No, that does not produce 500hp. You will be hard pressed to produce more than 350 with a .43 A/R exhaust housing. Either way, this is WAY too small for an I5 engine.

I still can't understand why it will fail, is it turbulent air that wil kill it? If you think about the mesh, its already gone.

Without the mesh it might not read correctly and no idea what kills it, possibly turbulence but that is just a speculation.

And mostly important and the reason of this thread, earlier i stated some questions about pinout, did i understand or did i fail on it?

Seems so. If you don't understand the instructions open the two pinouts:

http://www.s2central.net/motronic_pinout_3B.html

http://www.s2central.net/motronic_pinout_ABY.html

And sort it.

Btw, you forgot the intercooler. Stock intercooler starts becoming an ever increasing restriction at higher power.

Regarding your rant about cheap or not - the cheapest (free!) thing to do is doing your homework. You got a lot of the basic things completely wrong.

[pnanassy]

All i would like to see at the end is a dyno and/or a timeslip.

[TH_Trinity]

Hey everybody,

Though I should just drop by just to finish up my predictions and statements from way back here.
Something has gone good, something not so good, alot of thinking and some creative solutions.

Setup:

Custom manifold with original Audi WG with 1.9barA spring (Original gave out on 2.7barA pressure)
3" DP over to original 2x2.25" exhaust with original cats(Earlier i stated wrong, it was not 1x2,5")
3b wire harness pinnes to aan with 5 additional wires for CoP
Modified AAN ECU with custom chip (working despite prj's skepticism)
044 fuelpump in tank.
Bosch green-injectors 440cc@3bar
Aeromotive FPR tuned to 49psi at 1barA pressure.
Custom BorgWarner turbo trimmed to 0.48
Custom Intercooler 2,5" IC gates, IC core: 450x160x90 B&P Design
5 x original Audi 2.0tfsi CoP
Spec 3+ cluch and 016 transmission
Engine, gearbox, drivetrain and rear diff is mounted steady with hockeypucks.
Engine only running H-Rods and Ferrea stainless steel valves for intake and exhaust as non-original components, everything else is just washed/cleaned and replaced with stock components. Gaskets, lifters, oil pump and everything else.
Stock 3b intake manifold
Stock 3b MAF (BUT I have changed two MAF's last 15k kilometres, suspects lack of bypass-valve might be cause, or excessive airflowspeed as prj and PaulN ealier posted. Bypassvalve is now installed so I wait and see, also working on a solution by either using Arduino or a piggypack to feed Motronic manipulated signal from newer MAF which dont uses hotwire but have not closed the deal yet there....)

Pricetag: $7.286 USD


I would also like to apologize to everyone that answered on this thread initially who read me as a smartass, I still think someone got a littlebit narrow-sighted but after doing this job with the car, I really understand why!
I would also like to thank prj and Paul N for helping me get the pinout right and the links.


And the finale, as close as you get on a power-graph..
Graph is from running 98 octane pumpgas @ 2.9barA pressure, rolling start shifted in 3.gear@1500rpm and WOT up to redline, IAT@+24celcius, wind is not compensated:
G-Tech graph

[Rusty]

to the forum by the way