3B and leaking camshaft seal.

[maddis]

Hi,

I have 1990 Audi 200 20V Turbo Quattro with this problem:



Leaking camsaft seal. That picture was taken soon after I bought the vehicle.

Little bit history. The previous owner replaced blown headgasket. Since there aren't any bubbles coming from expansion tank I'd say the head is ok. And engine is working fine except that leak.

After I found out that the seal is leaking I just thought that there has been mishap when installing it and it was just bad because of that. Wrong. The new seal was leaking too. Well, I had some problems installing the seal so I through that I've broken the seal when installing. So after verifying that the seal is still leaking I changed it again. This time I was extra careful not to mess up the seal.

After that second seal it seemed that the leak was fixed, but soon it started to leak again. That can be detect by the smell of burning oil since it hits exhaust because it leaks on that side of engine where exhaust is and it also drips on the ground when parked.

Since the second seal was leaking too I was thinking that something is creating pressure under valve cover causing the weakest point ie. the seal to leak. So, when changing yet another seal I also did this.



I installed extra breather to valve cover. I originally planned to attach it to that engine breather, but it seemed to be bit too big of a task so I installed breather that lets the pressure to be release outside.

This time I also left the seal couple millimeters outside of the head level just trying it to set to different place in camshaft if there is groove from old seals although I couldn't see anything.

Yesterday I drove close to 100km test drive and sure enough the seal is leaking again. Valve cover seal isn't leaking, it's the camshaft axle seal.

I've used cheap, midprice and oem seal(expensive!). First seal was midprice, second was cheapest and now there is oem seal. Interestingly enough it seemed that cheapest seal was leaking least although it was so loose that I could push it in place just by fingers and didn't need to tap it in place.

I'm running out of ideas what is causing that. I'm starting to think that problem might be somewhere else. It cannot be that all four seals would be bad. One could be to attach that new breather to engines original breather, but since there are no breather originally, I don't think that's the problem.

Any suggestions are welcome.

[UrS4boy]

Four things:

1. There might be a nick in the head or the cam cap that holds the seal in place that is preventing the cam seal from sealing.
2. There might be a nick or roughness on the surface of the cam where the seal and camshaft meet.
3. Do you have the correct seal? PN 068103085E (Item 8)

4. Are all your Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) system components functioning properly? It seems like the camcover is being pressurized (and it shouldn't be if things are working properly). Follow this link and click on the Crankcase Ventilation System live link label in the right hand corner of the diagram for more PCV system info.

http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4s6/msgs/22506.phtml

I suspect an issue with Items 4 and/or 6 in this diagram:

[maddis]

1. - 2. I've checked the camshaft part where the seal goes and it's smooth and I cannot see any nicks or even the groove where the old seal has been. Very faint groove is visible. The leakage is from between camshaft and seal, not the head and seal (just to make sure).

3. Yes, I have correct seal. 47x10x32.

4. This is where things get interesting. I've noticed earlier that ETKA says there should be breather coming to valve cover. In my case there isn't even a place for that tube to connect. Back of the valve cover is smooth and there never has been hole for the breather.

Can the crankcase pressure move under valve cover and cause seals to fail?

Anyway, that seems like a good place to continue and maybe I'll finally connect that new valve cover breather to original breather.

[simon20vq]

Have you got a 7A head/cover fitted?
Is that little breather blocked, try adding a long pipe and running it to see if the creats less pressure?
Is the camshaft bent i.e could it have been dropped?

[maddis]

What's 7A head/cover? I'm new with Audi's. Just bought my first one last year.

There are no breather originally in valve cover. The nipple that should be on the back of the cover is not there. There is not even a mark where it should be. That's why I added the extra breather on top of the valve cover.

It's possible that camshaft might be tiny amount bent if nothing else seem to help. I'll hope that's not the case.

But next I'll go through the original crankcase breather and see that it's working and not blocked and connect valvecover breather there as well.

Are there any methods on testing those things in breather? I think one way valve is easy to test, but what about that pressure regulator?

[rs200]

I hope that you will solve that problem!
please give us more picture of your car.

[maddis]

Well, since requested. Sorry a small off-topic.

Here are few pics of my Audi.





More can be found link below. I'll add new pics when something interesting is happening and I remember take the picture. Sorry about all the comments being in Finnish.

Audi Gallery

[rs200]

tnx for pictures.. you know that I'm biggest audi 200 fun in the world ! so I must see your car.
at the moment I have 3 x 200 20v at home
one is Avant. so if you will need some parts just ask.

your problem of leaking camsaft seal.. hm.. try to put new seal but not on old place. one mm further is enough. because on old place on cam is whole from old seal.
do you undertand what I mean?

[newsh]

Are the cam journals worn? Caps at the correct torque? Can you move the cam by pushing down on it (hard)?

[maddis]

I've have to disappoint you, but that my Audi 200 has been originally Audi 100 (model year 1985) and it's been build to be like Audi 200 in 1998. Chassis is still Audi 100 and pretty much everything else is Audi 200 and since in paper it's -85 that means not so tight emission control.

I bought new valves for breather and will be installing them during this weekend. Hopefully that's enough and problem is not in camshaft, but I'll try to remember test pushing the cam. I'm not sure about torque caps. If nothing help then I'll have to test it.

I tried to left current seal 2mm outer than the earlier one, but didn't seem to help.

[UrS4boy]

Maddis: I would go back to this level and remove the front cam cap that holds the cam seal in place and inspect the cam thoroughly. I would also slip the cam seal on with the cap off and then replace the cap. Torque is 15 Nm as per the second diagram below. (You would NOT need to disturb the half-moons)

[A1QSHIP]

I have had good luck with this type of product in various engines for persistent front crankshaft & camshaft seal leaks.

http://www.theautopartsshop.com/auto+car-usa+parts/audi+coupe-quattro+engine-camshaft-repair-sleeve.html

[maddis]

I like this forum already.

Now back to business.

I dismantled breather completely. It wasn't blocked and even the one way valve worked just fine. I don't think the pressure regulator is easy to test, but I'll replace both things anyway. On thing that come to my mind that maybe the passage in engine block is blocked because that was only place I could find some black 'stuff'.

Most disturbing thing I found when I removed that my extra breather that it was as clean as when I installed it. Not a drop of oil was there, not even thrown by camshaft. That would indicate that the problem is not in the breathing like I was hoping.

A1QSHIP: Looks interesting, but I cannot figure out how does that work? The left one in the picture goes over the camshaft itself and the other part goes in to cylinder head?

UrS4boy: I was planning on removing the valve cover. I was going to check the torque of the 'half moons', but for that I think I need to loosen them all and then re-tighten them again. Or do you think that's not necessary, but only do the one that holds the seal?

Camshaft looked good what I could tell when the seal was removed, but I guess you get better view when the valve cover and that first half moon thingy is removed. I tried to push/pull the camshaft pulley, but couldn't feel any play so it seems that cam shaft mounts are tight (enough?).

[UrS4boy]

Warning Warning

What I meant by "half-moons" is the blue silicon rubber things at the back of the head. Most people call them "half moons".

What you *think* I meant is the cam caps. The only one that I think you need to remove is the very front cam cap on the exhaust cam, the cap that holds the cam seal in place. The reason is this will allow you a better view of the area of the exhaust cam that the cam seal is in contact with.

Do NOT remove the other cam caps. That said, you could check their torque (15 Nm) while you are there. DO NOT OVER torque.

[maddis]

Ah, my bad. Yes, I meant the cam caps.

I was just thinking that in order to check the correct torque I should loosen(not remove them completely, just loosen the bolts enough that I can re-tighten them) them first because otherwise I cannot tell if they are too tight or even correct tightness because they have been sitting there almost six months so unless they are really loose they are already stuck so that 15Nm isn't enough to tighten them to 15Nm. If you know what I mean?

And yes, I understand why to remove the first exhaust camshafts cam cap and that I'll do and inspect the cam once more.