turbochargers for 500hp

[Quattronaut]

What are you trying to say with this? Power curve is completely normal for a 2.2T AAN with stock cams. If you want more power and peak power higher up top you use 7A.

Ok, that´s just what I wondered about- I thought that one was with 7A cams, and expected peak power at higher rpm level.

HX35 Super:
compressor 54/77
turbine 55/65

Thanks.

I've been in and mapped triple digits of 2.2T engined modified cars, I would like to think I know what I am talking about.

I did NOT want to raise doubt on your experience or knowledge, Dmitri, I know your references in here. But when you say, that this turbo has better spoolup AND delievers more power that ANY K26/27 hybrid, that is spoken to generally, because there ARE K26/27 that DO have similar power and spoolup- even though they are really rare.

Btw, how about you people post some real dyno graphs from your cars

You even know that dyno sheets aren´t anything. Those can be wrong, can be manipulated, and you know that. So no, I do not have sheets, that is right, but I do not need them in a discussion where interested people just share experiences with different turbos without trying to compare their...hm. Lets say noses ;-) So I hope you accept, that the guys who drive this cars told me about there setups and the results, without showing off- there is no reason for lying or colouring them. Just private discussions. What I hoped we have in here ;-)

[A80Avant]

And isn't it also true that better fuel means you can use higher comp.ratio and higher timing making spool come sooner as well? My guess is that the 3800 could easily go to 4000 rpm with normal gasoline therefore making the HX35S a better turbo only by price. HTA 3076 has similar spool and makes more power with less boost but also costs double the price.

I think we have exhausted this thread again..

[PRY4SNO]

And isn't it also true that better fuel means you can use higher comp.ratio and higher timing making spool come sooner as well? My guess is that the 3800 could easily go to 4000 rpm with normal gasoline therefore making the HX35S a better turbo only by price. HTA 3076 has similar spool and makes more power with less boost but also costs double the price.

I think we have exhausted this thread again..

To my eye, this is a very true statement.

Price determines how much compromise one is willing to shoulder.

I was lucky that a few hundred bucks didn't influence my decision when I chose an EFR > PTE/HTA.

I have some dyno charts from my builder who did some beta testing with my EFR7163 but I'm reluctant to share them before I have a chance to install/tune things.

What I can say, is that the 7163 is nearly spot on with the response of a billet 30R but has more top end. And far better transient response.

[snp10]

With HX35 super we are a little bit offtopic here, because the subject is 500 hp turbos. Hx35 super can get 500 hp only with W/M kit. For example in Romania methanol is an illegal substance, so we can't use it. Also other forum members that had a Holset experience event with HX35 super agreed that is a very good turbo for that price, but the response of it is not so fast like other turbos.

[prj]

And isn't it also true that better fuel means you can use higher comp.ratio and higher timing making spool come sooner as well?

Higher CR was not used on this car, CR was stock. Boost wise - more timing or richer afr, colder exhaust gas, slower spoolup. Less timing, leaner afr - hotter exhaust gas, faster spoolup. Engine tuning basics. Mitsus even have a "lean spool" feature.

My guess is that the 3800 could easily go to 4000 rpm with normal gasoline therefore making the HX35S a better turbo only by price. HTA 3076 has similar spool and makes more power with less boost but also costs double the price.

I think we have exhausted this thread again..

Blah blah blah.

HTA3076R does not flow more, all it has is somewhat better re-spool.

Spoolup
HX35 Super, 2.2T, 98 RON + WMI. Slower dyno ramp rate.


Spoolup
HX35 Super, 2.2T, 98 RON + WMI. Faster dyno ramp rate. MBC.


Spoolup depends more on dyno ramp rate and whether the turbo is hot or cold. Hotter turbo always spools quicker. But you wouldn't know that, since you don't really have dyno experience.

In practice there is no difference between E85 and gasoline spool, E85 just makes more final torque.

[prj]

If I have time, I might post some transient response graphs HX35 vs. HTA30R.
The difference is not big at all.

[A80Avant]

Do us a favor and as you consider yourself a perfectionist when posting graphs post everything about an engine. Just saying 2.2T and wmi doesn't say the true story. A minute ago you said HX35S on normal gasoline does not make more than 460hp. Is that on a normal stock engine? Ported head? Bigger valves? Original cams? What exactly? Which gear is the pull done? 4th? 5th?

If you do have any graph without exotic fueling, post that as well. Not everyone wants to use that stuff or has access to it.

And finally if you do have some road dyno graphs that will tell even a better story as dynos are very user depended. My graphs are always street graphs.
My car in comparison is on normal gasoline, slightly larger valves, mild porting and ADU cams. 81.5 pistons.
The boost is at 3800 on 4th gear to 2 bar as requested. I use the 0.63ar and power is around 500hp figure using a mean of multiple runs on similar roads. There are graphs on my thread.

[prj]

Do us a favor and as you consider yourself a perfectionist when posting graphs post everything about an engine. Just saying 2.2T and wmi doesn't say the true story.

It does considering all these graphs are on stock head with stock pistons and strong rods. Nothing special done to any of these cars.

A minute ago you said HX35S on normal gasoline does not make more than 460hp.

WMI is hardly normal gasoline, isn't it? Straight pump - 460, maybe 470hp. With WMI 520 hp. With E85 570 hp.

Which gear is the pull done? 4th? 5th?

It does not matter which gear on the dyno, as long as you are within dyno limits! Again if you had any experience with dynos you would know that. On the dyno you choose a gear, calibrate the RPM on said gear, and after that set a ramp rate in RPM/sec. If the dyno's max roller speed and wheel/axle torque rating allows it, then it does not make any difference if you do this in 3rd or in 6th.

Street graphs are pointless as comparison because all they show is road incline, wind speed and vehicle weight.
Heavier car - earlier spoolup on the graph, lighter car, later spoolup. Because of how the car accelerates. On a dyno the ramp rate is fixed, so the load on the engine is the same with a given ramp rate.

On the road you can do 100-200 pulls, which will be a good indication for comparing the car with another car, but completely useless from a power estimation or engine standpoint.

How about putting your money where your mouth is and getting your car dynoed? All I can see is talk, and no data.

[lcsmith]

I'm loving this thread! Great reading guys keep it up!

[vti2]

Dmitri you would say for 550+ on 98oct. it will be better the HX40?

[Quattronaut]

How about putting your money where your mouth is and getting your car dynoed? All I can see is talk, and no data.

Uh, kinda agressive sounds in here...guys- I hope everbody, keeps calm, this ist just an information thread, and we all should be

It does considering all these graphs are on stock head with stock pistons and strong rods. Nothing special done to any of these cars.

Interesting, thanks.

and after that set a ramp rate in RPM/sec.

Dmitri, could you explain the term ramp rate to me? Could not find some good translation, and do not know it.

It does not matter which gear on the dyno, as long as you are within dyno limits!

Maybe the overall torque and power numbers are the same, but I think especially the spoolup and rpm levels are influenced by gear, because spoolup needs time, and in lower gears you are running through rpm band that quick, that full boost could be reached only at higher rpm. For example- my old K26/27 was that ugly laggy, that even in 2. gear he only reached 1,5bar while 1,9 were mapped, and also reached in 5th gear.

Dmitri, on the first dyno from your 2 latest ones, the lower lines, is that boost at intake mani? That very interesting, do you have some others sheets with these lines, to see, if there is delay between max boost and max torque?

[diesel des]

Ramp rate is how fast the engine e is allowed to rev up. Eg 500 rpm per second is a faster ramp than 250 rpm per second. A slow ramp rate is like driving in top gear and vice versa.

[prj]

Dmitri you would say for 550+ on 98oct. it will be better the HX40?

Yes, you need HX40, but HX40 is only for drag racing on 2.2T, it is useless for anything other than going in straight line.
The shaft is bigger than HX35, the re-spool is slow, the spool is slow.

Uh, kinda agressive sounds in here...guys- I hope everbody, keeps calm, this ist just an information thread, and we all should be

Some people don't understand without a little forcing.

Maybe the overall torque and power numbers are the same, but I think especially the spoolup and rpm levels are influenced by gear, because spoolup needs time, and in lower gears you are running through rpm band that quick, that full boost could be reached only at higher rpm. For example- my old K26/27 was that ugly laggy, that even in 2. gear he only reached 1,5bar while 1,9 were mapped, and also reached in 5th gear.

Not on the dyno. On the dyno (if dyno parameters allow) with a fixed ramp rate (let's say 200rpm/sec) the spool will be exactly the same with 2nd or with 5th gear. Because the engine RPM is always increasing at the same speed e.g. 200 rpm/sec. No matter what gear you are in.

In reality you can not use 2nd gear because the torque multiplication is too much, and you can not use 6th gear because the roller speed will be too much. So usually you can choose between 3rd, 4th and 5th. Does not really matter which you pick.

It boils down to this - on the dyno you mostly test the engine. On the road you mostly test the whole car. When you are tuning the engine it is good to isolate as many parameters as possible. If you use the dyno correctly you can simulate different kinds of scenarios - slow ramp, fast ramp etc. Only by changing a few parameters.

[Quattronaut]

So that is controlled with the drag of the dyno, the throttle is full open from start to end? Because first I thought, that is controlled via pedal- slower pressing it down. Which in no way would make sense to me :-)

Thanks Dmitri and Diesel- that ramp rate thing I did not know, but then it´s clear that the effect of different gears can be equaled.

[prj]

So that is controlled with the drag of the dyno, the throttle is full open from start to end?

The throttle is of course open full from start to end.
Usually on a modern dyno you have a variable eddy current brake or a number of them.

This information can be easily found on google.