How much, what to use to get somewhere 350-500bhp?

[GazzaG60]

If I could offer one piece of advise it would be this: have a plan and stick to it.

lol

for me this never happens. goal post and on quicker wheels than s2. but to be honest i alwasys want a bit more and an bit more.

cars and tuning is as much about the journey as the finished result.

i started with turbo, manifold and 3" system. then vems, then injectors, then rods, then wagenr IC and intake, then cams.

it felt at its snappiest but not most powerful on stock inlet and ic with stock cams and about 1.4 bar boost. the 7a cams seem to bring in some lethargic issues before and in the onset of boost. maybe the timing of them, up top with 2 bar though its a mover.

[Quattronaut]

Stock RS2 IC, cams, injectors and manifold are good for around 420 hp. Wagner manifold and IC can take up to 500hp. Wagner inlet is less important for power, but important for less lag and better throttle response due to the shorter piping way.

To be honest:
Step 1: Best thing for daily driver ist RS2 setup. Maybe with stock ABY cams, for earlier torque loosing little peak power. With stock RS2 turbo, if you want to keep the block untouched. Not expensive, big fun, perfect reliable and quick car.
Step 2: Upgrade the turbo; another KKK compressor wheel to the RS2 one, or take a little Garret, GT3071 or similar. Then you´ll get some 420hp, with faster spool and less lag. But that´s where you should upgrade rods, to be able to use that turbos in lower rpms. Having a good turbo for wide power band and lower rpm torque, and then limit that thing with a "safer" software to protect the rods is quite nonsense. Costs are as you like it, ´cause you can add some thousands with Wagner and bigger exhaust, if you want. Reliability proven, very very quick car.

Step 3: Everything more than 480-500 hp: Prices explode. Head, Block, turbo, brakes, exhaust, clutch, gears- everything has to be done new und with custom parts. Some things are proven, some are not, more rumours around those things than around the british royals. Especially in here
And- maybe daily driveabilitiy and cruising is not that fun any more.

If you wanna keep the block- take the first step. If you want to spend some money and have the fastest daily driver experience: invest in rods, and a turbo upgrade.

And then start to save money for the big hunger

[Error404]

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[rxl]

[emoji106]

[GazzaG60]

if you are hunting for a figure the rolling road is the only way for the figures. not necessarily making the car as you want it though

ill be going back to one when im running again. just for a second opinion mainly on AF ratio.

[Chris5044]

thx for the advice, hmmmm
@quattronaut ... its kind of hard now as your info now conflicts a little with Alberts info on lower nm map. because i was going to go route of 400-450bhp .. limiting rods... because the cost is only slightly more to get a better gain. as 350 bhp isnt enough for the amount of money .. 280bhp feels slow..

I'm ok to wait a little longer also to get that 400+ performance .. so i might jump to step 2

[rxl]

If you are going for big power do get a spare block and build it up and not let the car stand... And you will see what does it need

[GazzaG60]

think we maybe confusing you a little now with opinion. most is based on btdt fact. issue is not all engines are the same or in the same condition

mine i felt was in good shape. good even compression, no smoke. id already run the big turbo on tubes on stock compression for 12 months at about 350hp maybe a bit more. therefore i already had the bigger bits fitted turbo manifold custom exhaust.i had an issue with a headgasket maybe or a cam sensor or both. either way with the head off i decided to do a little work, fitting rods, piston skim. what i did most would say is dont do it it wont work ti will fail. fact is it didn't fail and it worked, proven. i therefore deduce my engine which at the time had about 105k on it was in good shape crank and mains wise. i ran it for 2 years, no issues and before the car was destroyed up to 2 bar boost. i dont know the compression ratio, can remember the exact piston skim done. i had nothing special done. think it was 1mm off the full piston face.

for what its worth i dont think any of the ways listed are wrong. its each to their own. lots will think im wrong though i feel. and none of them will have never seen my car.

to keep things realistic and on a digestible level rather than a big bang job (again some like big bang i like the journey getting there) id start with

outside and bolt-ons manifold turbo piping etc
items to support new bolt-nos and support future goal. fueling etc
internals if necessary to support goal.

the most important part of all is tuning and good tuning to cover all stages as you go

[Quattronaut]

@quattronaut ... its kind of hard now as your info now conflicts a little with Alberts info on lower nm map. because i was going to go route of 400-450bhp .. limiting rods

What exactly is the conflict?

[Albert]

What exactly is the conflict?

as stated before HP is not a limit for rods.

In my car I had stock rods and kept Nm around 500. The car just just fine on race track with pedal to the metal sessions up to 20 minutes. Striped the engine at end of 2014 and it had no failure on bearing ect.

Also as prj stated is not the power that bends rods (of course to reasonable amount) but knock.

[Chris5044]

This part:



"But that´s where you should upgrade rods, to be able to use that turbos in lower rpms. Having a good turbo for wide power band and lower rpm torque, and then limit that thing with a "safer" software to protect the rods is quite nonsense."

... On another note thx for the replies guys.... I was going to go down the route of albert's advice... and limit the torque to keep rods..
How long have you been running this setup Albert?

[Quattronaut]

as stated before HP is not a limit for rods.

I never wrote something like that

In my car I had stock rods and kept Nm around 500.

Talking about a 450hp car, 500 nm is not much torque. Every stock RS2 turbo can do this. And that´s what I wrote: Take an RS2 turbo, if you wanna keep the block.

Also as prj stated is not the power that bends rods (of course to reasonable amount) but knock.

You and Prj are right- motor torque itself does not kill rods. It is knock or early detonation, ignition failure etc., that LET the EXISTING torque kill rods. You understand?

Albert uses his car and motor setup in a complete other way then you will do, Chris. His is for race. He in fact does not need high torque at low revs. So MAYBE he talks about something else than you do.

Daily drivers need torque down low- for really having fun with the car, torque should be there as low and as much as possible. With a good 400+ hp turbo you can have boost at 3000 rpm with 600nm at 3500 and e.g. 430 hp at 6500-7000.

So it is just a question of personnel opinion. How far do you want to minimize the risk- and how much torque do you wanna have how early.

[prj]

Stock rods are OK at 600nm constant usage with low rpm, and a good map where the ECU can pull timing on some knock.

You guys should really take a look at a pressure transducer signal and a thermal signal in an engine during knock, and you will realize why torque does not bend anything.

Thermals can spike over 1500C as a localized event. That is why continued knock melts things.
Pressure transducers show a very high and brief spike. It is this spike that bends rods.
One reason to change the rods is metal fatigue. There can be issues with high rpm usage that cause the rod to snap (I've seen this on 2.2T).

Even if you put in stronger rods, if you keep the engine knocking, it will either melt a piston or it will eventually spin a bearing, as the pressure spikes get high, the stronger rods do not give in, and the bearings get squashed, as the next weakest point.

The only thing I would be concerned about in a 2.2T, is building up high torque at an rpm where the oil pump has not yet reached it's full pressure thus pushing the bearing against the crank.
This does not really happen with 2.2T, it is more of a problem with 2.5 setups...

[Chris5044]

hey thx for your input prj!!
So your saying its safe to hit 450hp on stock rods then?

I might just at this expense - get rods to be safe ..... but i'll wait a while till I am in a more sensible position.

PS: these cars freaking rock!!! I toasted a Bentley yday evening on way out of London!!..
that was with exhaust and homefried chip .... ...hmmm maybe i should get this dynoed?

Just in this form its quick....

[GazzaG60]

a dyno gives you a basepoint if figures are important to you. i never dyno'd the s2 stock. i added a little boost on the eboost in stock form. usd a wideband to ensure i was in fuel spec. went a lot better as i think my n75 was on its way out.

went to the dyno on 3" and vems and big turbo but poorly balanced fuel system. just to see really how the map seemed. that did 321/325 at 5k then run aborted.

not been back since.