Introductions and something some might consider insane

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  • sans-pareil
    S2Forum Hobbyist
    • Mar 2011
    • 12
    • Country: Netherlands

    #1

    Introductions and something some might consider insane

    Hello everyone,

    I'm from the Netherlands, and to be honest, I'm not an Audi man. My passion is Citroens. Now, you all wonder, what am I doing here. As a citroen man, I do ofcourse have a healthy appreciation for audi technology if not for their thoughts on how suspension should work.

    I own a garage specialised in citroens with Hydraulic suspension, especially, the DS, SM, CX and XM. At the risk of insulting audi S2 owners: One of my customers has come to me asking to build a hybrid of an SM and an audi S2. In short, he wants a 5 cylinder 169kw engine and an automatic transmission from an S2 in his SM. I'm here to ask if anyone might be willing to spend a few moments to brainstorm about how this could be achieved. Please note, fifty replies giving me reasons not to or that it can't be done or whatever, which is what I normally get on forums are of little use to me, unless ofcourse you have a suggestion how it can be done better, then I'm all ears.

    There are a number of challenges in placing such an engine in an SM. An audi S2 has, front to rear, gearbox then engine, in an SM it's the other way round. That means reversing the differential in the gearbox. I have no idea whether that's possible and that's where I would really appreciate the help of you fellows who have experience with Audi S2 tech.

    So, perhaps something a little out of the ordinary, any reactions will be appreciated, and perhaps the problem itself belongs in a different topic.
  • Tonks4x4
    Retired OG Mod
    • Nov 2005
    • 3062
    • Country: United Kingdom

    #2
    Could you not make it rear wheel drive and have the engine and box in the rear, or have the engine and box at the front moved back to fit and have it rear wheel drive again?
    Audi Nut!!!

    Comment

    • s2_wot
      S2Forum Fiend
      • Aug 2006
      • 2178

      #3
      if it's got a 5 pot turbo in it I think you'll find plenty of interest in it here.

      There was no auto in the s2 IIRC but you could have an auto in the early s4 or s6.
      Shane

      Comment

      • sans-pareil
        S2Forum Hobbyist
        • Mar 2011
        • 12
        • Country: Netherlands

        #4
        Rear wheel drive would be a very serious conversion, not impossible ofcourse, but I do think the customer wouldn't want to compromise on the basic geometry and handling of the car. I'll ask, but for now I'm working on the assumption that it has to be front wheel drive and front-mid engine, just like the SM originally was. Also, has to be an automatic. I think the audi CVT box is probably fine too, though that's later I think, but if it's easier to turn around, it's worth looking into.

        Comment

        • Jamo
          Retired OG Mod
          • Mar 2004
          • 21750
          • Country: United Kingdom

          #5
          Speak to puglife he has made a rwd mk1 golf and has details on how to mod the gearbox

          Comment

          • s2_wot
            S2Forum Fiend
            • Aug 2006
            • 2178

            #6
            Have you any photos of an SM for us?
            Shane

            Comment

            • sans-pareil
              S2Forum Hobbyist
              • Mar 2011
              • 12
              • Country: Netherlands

              #7
              As good a place to start as any.

              Comment

              • S2central.net
                Retired OG Mod
                • Jul 2003
                • 16590
                • Country: Northern Ireland

                #8
                You can of course go I5 20V turbo with AAN software using the ECU code that expects Automatic gearbox... some mechanical fun required to make it 2WD in that format but not rocket science I suppose for those with the right mechanical expertise.
                Paul Nugent
                Webmaster http://S2central.net
                Administrator http://S2forum.com

                1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

                Comment

                • driftin jo
                  S2Forum Fiend
                  • Sep 2007
                  • 2222
                  • Country: United Kingdom

                  #9
                  Originally posted by sans-pareil
                  Rear wheel drive would be a very serious conversion, not impossible ofcourse, but I do think the customer wouldn't want to compromise on the basic geometry and handling of the car. I'll ask, but for now I'm working on the assumption that it has to be front wheel drive and front-mid engine, just like the SM originally was. Also, has to be an automatic. I think the audi CVT box is probably fine too, though that's later I think, but if it's easier to turn around, it's worth looking into.
                  Is he mentally ill ?? without serious chassis upgrade/ strengthening the s2 engine will tear the Citroen apart , especially if it is going to be front wheel drive . As for the handling and basic geometry it would be totally changed ! Does he have any idea how much more weight he is going to add tom the front end of his Citroen ? Foot down car goes in a straight line , regardless of steering input, fancy Citroen suspension will fail to tame the very torque 230 HP S2 engine.

                  All I can say to your customer really is good look with that as I think he is deluded as to how it is going to drive.

                  Comment

                  • quattro
                    S2Forum Maniac
                    • Dec 2004
                    • 768
                    • Home: Wales Current: England

                    #10
                    As you want it to be FWD i think the best way is too look in to having it transverse, this makes it for a very wide transmission/engine combo but using Audi longitudinally mounted engine would be even harder as the engine sits so far out in front. May by best way is too look in to VW golf transmission from the 1.8 16v NA engines....
                    Probably the longet S2 project in history EVER!

                    Comment

                    • DS2
                      S2Forum Fanatic
                      • Sep 2010
                      • 80
                      • Home: Jordan Current: Finland

                      #11
                      Originally posted by driftin jo
                      Is he mentally ill ?? without serious chassis upgrade/ strengthening the s2 engine will tear the Citroen apart , especially if it is going to be front wheel drive . As for the handling and basic geometry it would be totally changed ! Does he have any idea how much more weight he is going to add tom the front end of his Citroen ? Foot down car goes in a straight line , regardless of steering input, fancy Citroen suspension will fail to tame the very torque 230 HP S2 engine.

                      All I can say to your customer really is good look with that as I think he is deluded as to how it is going to drive.
                      on this one

                      Comment

                      • sans-pareil
                        S2Forum Hobbyist
                        • Mar 2011
                        • 12
                        • Country: Netherlands

                        #12
                        Please, I know a little bit about Citroens. The SM chassis was tested extensively by citroen upto 340hp. There is a bonneville SM, recordholder in its class, with 500+hp. The suspension arms, wheel bearings and all structural components make what's used by more modern cars look like mecano toys.

                        He will experience problems with grip, because weight distribution on an SM is excellent, and the nose isn't really heavy enough to even get the original power on the road well. Other than that, handling is excellent, even doubling the power would not cause any real problems. As long as the engine stays in the same place, geometry should be fine. The original 2.7 liter six cylinder weights about 140kg. No idea what the I5 engine weighs, but it won't be more than 50kg of difference which won't really influence a 1500kg car, and even if it does, I have infinite permutations in damping and suspension I can change, and can even add semi-active roll stabilisation from an XM if I need to.

                        So maybe no fast starts. So what? That's hardly what it's for. What I really want to know is if I can put it in without ending up with four or five reverse gears.

                        Comment

                        • sans-pareil
                          S2Forum Hobbyist
                          • Mar 2011
                          • 12
                          • Country: Netherlands

                          #13
                          Originally posted by quattro
                          As you want it to be FWD i think the best way is too look in to having it transverse, this makes it for a very wide transmission/engine combo but using Audi longitudinally mounted engine would be even harder as the engine sits so far out in front. May by best way is too look in to VW golf transmission from the 1.8 16v NA engines....
                          The original engine is mounted lengthwise. Rebuilding to transverse would dramatically change the cars geometry. Please people, let's not lose sight of the objective here. The engine goes in the same place as the original one, in line with the gearbox. Turning around an audi unit should fit fine. The main issue here is whether there is a way I can build it and deal with the direction of drive.

                          Comment

                          • driftin jo
                            S2Forum Fiend
                            • Sep 2007
                            • 2222
                            • Country: United Kingdom

                            #14
                            Originally posted by sans-pareil
                            Please, I know a little bit about Citroens. The SM chassis was tested extensively by citroen upto 340hp. There is a bonneville SM, recordholder in its class, with 500+hp. The suspension arms, wheel bearings and all structural components make what's used by more modern cars look like mecano toys.

                            He will experience problems with grip, because weight distribution on an SM is excellent, and the nose isn't really heavy enough to even get the original power on the road well. Other than that, handling is excellent, even doubling the power would not cause any real problems. As long as the engine stays in the same place, geometry should be fine. The original 2.7 liter six cylinder weights about 140kg. No idea what the I5 engine weighs, but it won't be more than 50kg of difference which won't really influence a 1500kg car, and even if it does, I have infinite permutations in damping and suspension I can change, and can even add semi-active roll stabilisation from an XM if I need to.

                            So maybe no fast starts. So what? That's hardly what it's for. What I really want to know is if I can put it in without ending up with four or five reverse gears.
                            bonneville = straight line .

                            Comment

                            • spink
                              S2Forum Freak
                              • Jul 2003
                              • 4382
                              • Country: England

                              #15
                              What a completly mad idea,but i like it.Think the trabant s2 was the most bonkers i have seen(no idea if it ever ran).

                              Always quite liked the look of the SM.Has the maserati engine expired?Or is he just bored of its performance?

                              S2 engines weigh approx 190kg

                              Keep us upto date with how you get on.

                              Comment

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