Has your fuel tank got a vacuum in it?

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  • S2central.net
    Retired OG Mod
    • Jul 2003
    • 16590
    • Country: Northern Ireland

    #31
    Lets not get catch tanks and carbon canisters mixed up here guys.

    Anyway - I found the Bosch reference material on the subject - its considerably more interesting than you might first think !

    Firstly - a diagram shows that the carbon canister has three connections. One at top where fuel vapours arrive from the tank breather. Secondly for a connection to the 'EVAP' or 'purge' valve that allows the engine to ingest metered doses of fumes. Lastly - and importantly - a vent to atmosphere from the bottom of the carbon can... This to allow air to be sucked up with the fuel vapours such that they are purged into the engine - this process also regenerates the activated charcoal filter within the 'carbon canister'.

    Additionally it describes the primary purpose to prevent unwanted HC emissions from the fuel tank and the secondary one as preventing build up of pressure in the fuel tank.

    There is a 1-way valve shown on the EVAP valve which ensures fumes can only flow from tank to manifold - and not the other way - a bad day if you have nasty misfire !

    All this EVAP nonsense gives the closed loop lambda adaptation a bit of a headache as it gets affected in varying degrees by this essentially unmetered flow (by the MAF) of air and fuel vapour. It explains why the duty cycle on the EVAP is low at low engine speeds and higher at high engine speeds - intake air mass to be more accurate.

    It also means my theory of the carbon can being blocked as the root cause of excessive vacuum on the fuel tank has some merit. Cos if that vent on the carbon can is blocked, then the EVAP system can only ever suck fumes from the tank and never gives it a chance to breath properly.

    There is also the possibility that some of these scenarios of excessive vacuum in the fuel tank are caused by a failure in the purge valve itself and that the ECU has no control of the amount of regenerative flow - and therefore vacuum on the tank. This kind of mechanical failure on the purge valve will be undetected as long as the ECU 'sees' a good electrical connection to the purge solenoid. Or it could be a mistake in an EVAP map on an upgraded ECU that poorly controls the purge valve.

    Notably - when active lambda is turned off (WOT for example) only small amounts of EVAP purge are permissible as there would be no way to compensate for mixture deviations... Thats a generic thing, but at WOT on our cars we have boost in the IM and so there is nothing being purged by the EVAP anyway.

    I for one am more of the mind now to redirect my own tank breather to atmosphere and dial out all the EVAP nonsense. I dont think the extra HC emissions from my car will harm mother earth - and by giving my ECU all that extra work to do by continually adjusting mixture for it then I reckon I'll easily be carbon neutral on this one pretty quickly.
    Paul Nugent
    Webmaster http://S2central.net
    Administrator http://S2forum.com

    1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
    2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
    2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

    Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

    There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

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    • driftin jo
      S2Forum Fiend
      • Sep 2007
      • 2222
      • Country: United Kingdom

      #32
      Sounds like a good idea to me

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      • S2central.net
        Retired OG Mod
        • Jul 2003
        • 16590
        • Country: Northern Ireland

        #33
        And then I realised I had some Audi docs that covered the subject... Lines up nice with Bosch generic story. See attached PDF and the picture with ventilation at bottom of the carbon canister.

        NOTE - the location of the canister is not always where stated in that PDF. Its near the A-pillar on the ABY but not on the 3B Coupe for example.
        Attached Files
        Paul Nugent
        Webmaster http://S2central.net
        Administrator http://S2forum.com

        1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
        2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
        2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

        Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

        There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

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        • newsh
          S2Forum Obsessed
          • Aug 2003
          • 16226
          • Country: United Kingdom

          #34
          Good info Paul, thanks

          S2 Coupe 3B Project


          Ur quattro restoration

          S2 Avant

          Boost is the new rock and roll!
          sigpic

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          • Nuvo
            S2Forum Possessed
            • Nov 2003
            • 3825

            #35
            Originally posted by S2central.net
            And then I realised I had some Audi docs that covered the subject... Lines up nice with Bosch generic story. See attached PDF and the picture with ventilation at bottom of the carbon canister.
            Paul, Which Bosch manual is this from please?

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            • Jonas_R
              S2Forum Possessed
              • Jan 2004
              • 3781
              • Country: Denmark

              #36
              Got a question about the carbon canister valve.
              When I installed my catch tank I was told that I should block of the carbon canister valve where it connects to the PVC system.
              On Pauls diagram I cant see the connection for the PVC system but it should be there right?
              Sleeper S2 Avant +450

              A6 Avant 2.7t Stage 3

              Audi S2 Coupe RS2'ed

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              • driftin jo
                S2Forum Fiend
                • Sep 2007
                • 2222
                • Country: United Kingdom

                #37
                Originally posted by S2central.net
                And then I realised I had some Audi docs that covered the subject... Lines up nice with Bosch generic story. See attached PDF and the picture with ventilation at bottom of the carbon canister.

                NOTE - the location of the canister is not always where stated in that PDF. Its near the A-pillar on the ABY but not on the 3B Coupe for example.


                So we have definitive proof now then, all those people with the sucky sucky when they remove there petrol cap have a problem , most likely a blocked carbon canister .
                I new that couldn't be right .

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                • S2central.net
                  Retired OG Mod
                  • Jul 2003
                  • 16590
                  • Country: Northern Ireland

                  #38
                  That diagram only shows the EVAP system... It doesn't show how the EVAP purge valve is actually connected to the rear of IM by a T-piece on one of the PCV pipes
                  Paul Nugent
                  Webmaster http://S2central.net
                  Administrator http://S2forum.com

                  1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                  2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                  2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                  Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                  There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

                  Comment

                  • Nuvo
                    S2Forum Possessed
                    • Nov 2003
                    • 3825

                    #39
                    Originally posted by driftin jo
                    most likely a blocked carbon canister .
                    Isn't a stuck frequency valve more likely to be the problem here?
                    I believe Vag-Com has an output that will confim the valves operation at any rate.
                    Last edited by Nuvo; 10 March 2009, 11:50.

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                    • S2central.net
                      Retired OG Mod
                      • Jul 2003
                      • 16590
                      • Country: Northern Ireland

                      #40
                      Indeed that could be the problem as I said... and das Audi book says that even without ECU control of the valve it gets sucked open by IM vacuum.

                      I just had a far better idea - seeing as the purge valve is driven by one or more ECU maps - the EVAP output could be repurposed as a general purpose actuator for something like water injection, or nitrous even... Or for dual port WG control even. Would require some investigation but I think the EVAP maps will be easy found - in fact I've noticed a few curious shaped ones that would line up with the profile described by Audi & Bosch.

                      The way I figure it... If the carbon can is vented and has the activated charcoal contents to treat the fumes whilst the car is sitting stationary - then I think thats enough. Sure the fumes will build up a little on hot days and when running hot of course the fuel returned by the FPR to the tank will have been warmed by its journey to the engine room and back - but we are talking small temperature changes.
                      Paul Nugent
                      Webmaster http://S2central.net
                      Administrator http://S2forum.com

                      1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                      2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                      2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                      Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                      There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

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                      • Jonas_R
                        S2Forum Possessed
                        • Jan 2004
                        • 3781
                        • Country: Denmark

                        #41
                        What is the part no for the N80 carbon canister valve? Seems that the part no. is wrong on S2central.net since it is the same part. no as on the air intake sensor.
                        Sleeper S2 Avant +450

                        A6 Avant 2.7t Stage 3

                        Audi S2 Coupe RS2'ed

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                        • Azman
                          S2Forum Possessed
                          • Sep 2005
                          • 3205
                          • Country: United Kingdom

                          #42
                          Erm alittle confused by all this. Mine does this and has done since I have had it.What do I need to disconect and where to vent it to to solve the problem, don't fancy a mashed up fuel tank or the associated problems.

                          Cheers
                          Az
                          Dark Grey Avant
                          RS2 FARB
                          Powerflex Front wishbone bushes
                          Alloy Subframe Bushes

                          Comment

                          • S2central.net
                            Retired OG Mod
                            • Jul 2003
                            • 16590
                            • Country: Northern Ireland

                            #43
                            Az... look at the rear of your IM and you should see a blue colored plastic valve housing (this is the EVAP purge valve) - with two pipes...
                            one to the IM and one to the carbon canister. It also has a two-pin electrical plug on it. Leave the plug attached or you'll get a fault code.

                            Follow the hose that goes to the carbon canister and remove it from where it attaches to the canister (or cut the pipe in two to accomodate an optional joiner if you wish).
                            Then bung the end of the hose going to the purge valve - this stops the engine sucking unmetered air.
                            And leave the hose from the carbon can venting to ambient - this should stop the vacuum build up in the tank.

                            Paul

                            PS - I'll check and update s2central.net contents with this new info... or I'll never find it again !
                            Paul Nugent
                            Webmaster http://S2central.net
                            Administrator http://S2forum.com

                            1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                            2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                            2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                            Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                            There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

                            Comment

                            • Azman
                              S2Forum Possessed
                              • Sep 2005
                              • 3205
                              • Country: United Kingdom

                              #44
                              Ahhh the clicky thing that I used to have on the 3b'd coupe, used to drive me up te wall, I had ditched the cannister completely and this would explain the occasional smell of petrol will have a look tomorrow as have another car tinkering day off
                              Cheers

                              Az
                              Dark Grey Avant
                              RS2 FARB
                              Powerflex Front wishbone bushes
                              Alloy Subframe Bushes

                              Comment

                              • Rikki Kitto
                                S2Forum Zealot
                                • Feb 2010
                                • 6276
                                • Country: England

                                #45
                                Sorry to resurrect an old thread but mine is doing this really bad at the moment, is there a way of fixing this problem to keep the evap carbon can system or was the general consensus to get rid of it altogether?

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