ARB Manufacturer? Sway Bar / Anti Roll Bar

[s2driveruk]

It'd be nice to have a kit, front and rear which if possible was flexible enough to accommodate both track and road/fast road use.

Nice to see a supplier interested and participating with the requirements gathering, as a product manager, its not always the case I can assure you

Cheers
David

[Kliminati456]

So Jim, you have sold at least 2 already.... There would be alot of interest in this, I am sure...

Chris

Yes a 28-30mm farb would be sweet I would definitely take one at a fair price

[Rusty]

In short, the bar you offer is too weak. I'm running a 25mm front bar on the rear, the equivalent of a 22mm rear bar, to help with the understeer, it's about the only way to deal with Audi's stock chassis and it could do with a bit more to counter the HnRs as I'm sure they make things worse It's a little OTT on track but I think that's more to do with the rear suspension design and weight distribution as the stock bar could be lairy too. Most un-Audi like! I'm tempted to swap the 25 up front and put the 26 on the rear TBH. The larger bar offers more options for mid corner line adjustment.

Never understood the obsession with a stiffer front bar, why add understeer... anyway, there is a market there. Having played on a few cars, ID be tempted to go smaller up front to reduce the need for a massive rear bar. Adjustable is nice for road and track settings as a nice road setup needs taming for lift off oversteer on track, a 2 ton hot hatch can be fun.

I have also been trying to develop some proper springs for the S2, ARBs are all well and good but better to start with the springs and tune from there IMO...

Happy to discuss options Jim, PM or email me please

[Jamo]

Because it reduces bodyroll and the handling improves with the right bigger front and rear combo, no way would I run a thinner arb, the whitleline rear and rs2 front on my coupe gave a perfect neutral car for driving.

I never understood a very very big rarb trying to make a quattro handle like a rwd

[Error404]

its doesn't Jamo, its just makes the rear tuck in as it should IMHO.
On the road I have never induced a big oversteer moment, even with a bit of a "flick" on a wide roundabout

I'm running a 22mm rear bar set-up roughly equivalent to Rustys 25mm in terms of stiffness due to shorter lever arms and it is NOT an issue at all from a handling perspective

[Rusty]

Sorry Jamo, are you commenting on track handling Are they having a re-run of the Birmingham Super Prix :mischeif:

Bigger FARB induces understeer. Based on my experiences, to balance a big FARB you'd need a rather sill RARB, thus the best thing to do is to sort the springs out first.

Bigger RARB doesn't make the car handle anything like a RWD. RWD is pretty scary at times, quattro feels planted. Bigger RARB gives less power on understeer so you can be more aggressive and it stops that horride front scrubbing that the stock Audi chassis manages to generate most of the time and gives options when cornering other than just backing out of the throttle.

[Rusty]

Right, conversation with Whiteline was brief. They're not particularly interested in doing a larger front bar because they don't see the point in inducing more understeer, their words. MOQ for a 20mm rear bar is quite large but I've asked for a quote anyway. Not holding my breath for a workable price unfortunately.

The fact these guys want larger front sway bars is not something we have looked and probably will not as they will just induce more understeer and would have to be paired with a huge rear to fix the problem that was just created.

Once you have bars that big front and rear it will be a matter of then wanting softer springs or when a bump is hit in a corner there will be no give and the weight will be taken from the wheel that is gripping and will cause a slide affect until the weight is put back on it so in the end it would make for a slower lap time than just having the rear bar that we offer.

[Error404]

WTF, balance front to rear
There would be a big market for a proper sized front bar if it comes in cheaper than the RS2 bar, even more so if they produce a manly size rear bar

[Rusty]

26mm isn't man enough for ya eh

Cost of development would mean that a small batch would be high £, the front bar is complex and I've been quoted nearly double the RS2 bar cost to have them replicated... I'll keep looking though...

[Error404]

Nope. its poor!

Price on low volume stuff is a bummer

What about a 28mm Type 85 shape bar? Works with forged wishbones and also there is a market in the form of the URq and Type85 cars

[WhitelineJim]

G’day everyone,

Good debate and discussion and thanks for all the feedback.

Rusty, I guess the position is that we’d need to develop a larger rear and front pair if we were to add a larger front to the range as its important to maintain the balance and remove some understeer while increasing overall roll stiffness. We know that with this sort of chassis the larger RARB will improve front grip and understeer.

The front is a complex design so looks like we need to do some homework and see what sort of volume is possible. Thanks again.

Cheers
Whiteline Jim
jim@whiteline.com.au

[HPmuirt]

This is becoming quite a complex conversation so let's break it down in to the 3+1 main subject areas, in roughly the order of importance (based on numbers of cars/members and current availability of alternatives) namely: -

1. S2 Coupe RARB
2. S2 Avant/RS2 RARB
3. S2/RS2 FARB
4. Other cars (Not really under discussion in this thread)

1.

We know that with this sort of chassis the larger RARB will improve front grip and understeer.

INDEED - that is primarily what we want. There are various homemade options of using Audi 80 FARBs and swapping uprights etc but basically, I suspect that the majority want a replacement for the current Whiteline RARB with more stiffness (to use in combo with the RS2 FARB or a new replacement from you) as even on the hardest setting the current RARB is not enough!

3.

The front is a complex design so looks like we need to do some homework and see what sort of volume is possible.

Many of us are running the RS2 FARB so we probably need a mod to run a survey as to how many want an RS2 replacement (due to VAG sticking the price up) and how many want an uprated version.

Cheers n

Si

[Rusty]

Cheers Si, cutting it down to size is a good plan.

1.) Coupe RARB

I'm running a 25mm B4 FARB on the rear and it leaves a bit to be desired in terms of fit, that's why I started looking for a manufacturer, some 9 months ago, to make me a proper RARB setup that offered all the handling advantages and fitted as it should. This 26/25 setup is nice, It could do with a bit more on the road to counter the HnRs but that'll be sorted with springs and would be OK on track.

We're here to identify 1 product that answers the majority of requirements and I accept that my requirements aren't aligned with the masses for whom the step up from stock RARB or WL16 to something BIG is quite daunting. I have offered many reassurances based on my experience of 20k of (fast) road miles along with 'ring trips, track days but this seems not to be enough.

The 24mm FARB I ran for a while was a little less aggressive than the 25mm (perhaps obvious to some) and there's a 22mm option available too that would be less still and this is where I've advised most starting along the B4 path to start.

From my calculations, the equivalent design RARB to a 24mm FARB is approx 22mm and 22mm FARB approx 20mm. As you'll only want to make one product and you already offer the 16mm bar, I'd say that a 21mm bar would be the best option here to satisfy 2 camps.

A.) This will balance out a 28mm FARB nicely with similar characteristics to adding the 16mm RARB to the OE 26mm FARB, only stiffer allround.

B.) IME this will offer some seriously sharpened handling for those retaining the 26mm OE FARB or smaller...

Adjustability means that the RARB option can be used to balanbce the car on both road and track.

21mm bar can use the FARB ARB retaining cups and some 22mm superflex / new 21mm bushes.

2.) Avant RARB

The Neuspeed RARB off a B5 seems to have been the RARB upgrade of choice for Avant owners, 19mm IIRC and includes the brace bars to ensure proper location.

3.) B4 RS2+ FARB

A bigger FARB has a market because people want RS2 parts on their S2, price needs to be <£250 (approx. price of an RS2 bar) and needs to offer adjustability and a serious handling upgrade package, when combined with parts 1 or 2, the larger RARB.

-------

This is from my experience over the last 4 years driving with this setup. I know Mark Halligan has a 28/26 setup on stock springs, not heard from him in a while but his input would be gratefully received here, last I heard he was enjoying it. Doug and Error404 ran B3 bars on the rear, a stiffer setup again than mine and both reported that the handling was improved.

[Error404]

yup. worth a note here too that the Type85 / URq bar will work with forged front wishbones, and is a simpler pattern to the later Type89 and B4 bar which curves over the driveshaft etc. Obviously there is also a market for this in the form of the UR quattro and Type 85 cars which can all use this same bar. Only the B3 and B4 cars with pressed steel wishbones would struggle.


FYI This is my Type 85 FARB on the rear setup

[andy10v]

Will increasing the stiffness of the anti roll bars not reduce the independence of the suspension side to side?

I understood for road cars big anti roll bars were used to allow soft springs for comfort and reduce body roll. For more track orientated cars use stiffer springs and only use the arbs for fine tuning.

Would stiffer rear springs not be a better option (at the compromise of comfort). Can front springs be swapped to the rear for more neutral handling?

Rusty did you get any further with custom springs (I would be interested in relatively long travel stiffer springs if price is right).