starting discussion on the use of new VW 2.5L 5Cyl in Small Chassis

[Ruffiano]

"18.2 PSI on e85 and HTA3582r"

Apparently they need larger injectors/more fuel. and they haven't configured the VVT yet.

[URQguy]

Got about a billion emails to comb through, but yes, this car's first trip to the dyno was better than expected. It gobbles air like it is going out of style. We have a 2.2L in the shop with a TiAL housed GTX3076r on it with our manifolds products on it that would make for a very good apples to apples comparison for spool. We will likely stick the HTA3582r on it(yippee for vbands), tune for 18.2psi and see how it compares to the 07k on the same fuel, same dyno, same ECU, same conditions, same tuner, ect. One thing I can say is that my old bone stock head 2.2L make 460whp at 27psi on e85 with my custom manifolds on it. My hunch is that this motor will make 600whp on my dyno(perviously 034's dyno) at around 25psi.

The VVT is not active right now, though it does work. Vems requires a window of cam sync, but the swap over is putting it over that threshold and throwing trigger errors. It is an easy fix to get it running as an on/off switch, but the ultimate is what the Vems guys are working on for me right now, and that is a PWM scheme to have it adjustable 0-42 degrees. Even so, on a N/A 2.5L rabbit, swapping the cams is good for 41 ft/lbs of torque between 2000-5000. That will promote spool and beef up the bottom end of that dyno graph. I anticipate around 400 rpm worth of spool increase and a sizeable gain in torque by the time the phaser flips back at 5000 rpm.

Got headflow? Yes please. I'll try to update this once we get more fuel pump and injectors in the car to allow for 8200rpm pulls. Stay tuned.

[my2000apb]

Got about a billion emails to comb through, but yes, this car's first trip to the dyno was better than expected. It gobbles air like it is going out of style. We have a 2.2L in the shop with a TiAL housed GTX3076r on it with our manifolds products on it that would make for a very good apples to apples comparison for spool. We will likely stick the HTA3582r on it(yippee for vbands), tune for 18.2psi and see how it compares to the 07k on the same fuel, same dyno, same ECU, same conditions, same tuner, ect. One thing I can say is that my old bone stock head 2.2L make 460whp at 27psi on e85 with my custom manifolds on it. My hunch is that this motor will make 600whp on my dyno(perviously 034's dyno) at around 25psi.

The VVT is not active right now, though it does work. Vems requires a window of cam sync, but the swap over is putting it over that threshold and throwing trigger errors. It is an easy fix to get it running as an on/off switch, but the ultimate is what the Vems guys are working on for me right now, and that is a PWM scheme to have it adjustable 0-42 degrees. Even so, on a N/A 2.5L rabbit, swapping the cams is good for 41 ft/lbs of torque between 2000-5000. That will promote spool and beef up the bottom end of that dyno graph. I anticipate around 400 rpm worth of spool increase and a sizeable gain in torque by the time the phaser flips back at 5000 rpm.

Got headflow? Yes please. I'll try to update this once we get more fuel pump and injectors in the car to allow for 8200rpm pulls. Stay tuned.

you've got a text message!!!!!

[S2central.net]

Thats a factory VVT head on the 07K motor ?

[my2000apb]

yes

[Rocco]

what is VVT head?

[my2000apb]

what is VVT head?

science from the future or a galaxy far away

[S2central.net]

It is science from the future as far as S2 engine technology goes ;-)

Variable Valve Timing - generally speaking used to change valve openings for better mileage, torque and power seeing as camshafts with fixed timing are essentially a compromise for all engine conditions.

How is the VVT controlled on the 07K motor ?

[Rocco]

ok thanks

[URQguy]

hydraulic phasers with pulse width modulation if ecu can do it. VEMS can. It is adjustable up to 42 degrees... That is a lot by the way. The graphs shown are in the "flow" default location with no ecu control for this baseline. This is why the horsepower is shooting up like it is trying to climb Mt Everest. Once the VVT is controlled, spool will increase dramatically and torque will go way up until it is phased off at around 5200. 5200 and up will be the same.

hope that helps

[S2central.net]

Ok - that explains a lot... It also means that the Motronic ecu won't be able to capitalize on this great feature of the 07K - not unless an unused output can be controlled by a special map. I assume Vems does it with a 2d map using rpm as input ?

A piggy back module with something like a PIC device could be a nice companion for a motronic ecu though - although it wouldn't be as convenient to setup as vems on a single environment.

[URQguy]

I have daydreamed of a motronic controlled 07k before, and while it is possible, the Vems options are too good to pass up. Really, if I just added the reference pins on the flywheels we make, they would give the ECU the same signal, and the firing order is the same. As it sits right now without any VVT control is how the motronic controlled would look. A very crude but effective way to do it would be to find a very basic piggyback that would just jumper the VVT solenoid at 1800 and release at 5200.. It would have a V-Tech effect, but you would have both worlds.

The water temps and air temps would obviously have to be addressed but if you are gearing up to swap in an 07k in, those are very very minor details!

[S2central.net]

OK - ignoring VVT for now (assume a workaround with simple solenoid driver as you say) - is it just flywheel pins and suitable mountings for crank reference & rpm sensors that prevent using the Motronic ECU ?

Sorry for these fundamental questions so late in the thread by the way - I am in catch up mode

We need to also assume that Motronic would be running hotwire or hot film MAF as well - I expect the VEMS is just using TPS and MAP sensor.

[G60Rallye]

Looking forwards to seeing what power it makes at increased boost. Is the VVT just on the inlet cam?

[URQguy]

OK - ignoring VVT for now (assume a workaround with simple solenoid driver as you say) - is it just flywheel pins and suitable mountings for crank reference & rpm sensors that prevent using the Motronic ECU ?

Sorry for these fundamental questions so late in the thread by the way - I am in catch up mode

We need to also assume that Motronic would be running hotwire or hot film MAF as well - I expect the VEMS is just using TPS and MAP sensor.

You would just need to emulate the AAN sensors to keep the motronic happy. IE, just have pins on the flywheel in the correct spot, then have a single window hall sender on the cam. I am not sure how much cam timing flexibility the motronic has when the intake cam is moving, but I would assume it is just looking for what stroke the cams are on vs the crank.

There are locations on the exhaust cam that are not being utilized for fabing in a 1 window shutter wheel. It would be easy to do.

Hot wire MAF would be really easy. Just put one somewhere in the intake track. Done.