Hacking the Motronic ECU (Audi RS2)

[porkkis]

Ok my bad, sorry.

[s2dude]

Sorry, you can ask S2dude and he'll confirm, I never told him to remove his info, nor did I actually see it...

Absolutely true.

[Billman]

I am also interested into the RS2 only.

This Hondata thing is very nice. Would love to have something like this for the RS2. For sure the Market is not so wide like the Hondas, but maybe the Motronic for someone who knows about this Stuff is easier.

@Professional Tuners

See the "Modata" as an opportunity not to earn money though Tuning only but you can also give Sessions-Lectures on how to fine-tune it etc.

[cid]

Quote:
Originally Posted by cid
If you start jacking the fuel tables to make up for larger injectors(which is what most tuners are doing)you have to retune every condition that was factory tuned.This is not desirable and we would like to avoid this."

Sweeping statement that probably not wise to post.

Jamo,

Please note that this is not mine words, is from someone else. But if you think this is not wise, as many tuners are doing. Well I cant confirm how people work in Europe, but here I have seen peopel turbocharging NA cars, that they basically put some new big injectors on and simply rise the fuel pressure, they go into the fuel map table and just change a bit to make the car smooth. (But I can erase that, or people can just be wise enough and choose they tuners better). Sorry if I misunderstood you regarding this subject.

But basically the main table is just a part of the calculations, to my point of view there are a lot of constants that are used to calculate fuel and ignition, as such engine size, injector size, MAF... some ECUs work with a volumetric effciency table to calculate fuel.

I might be wrong here but I will keep trying until I had enough. Actually I had been looking at this for 6 months, sometimes I work hard for a weekend and then stop. I have my own job, that has nothing to do with hacking ECU my knowledge in hex and assembler is also terrible.

I have run IDA Pro before, but as I said it didnt help me much. I think even an emulator does not help that much, as it will help only to find the tables, but I think I have found many already. The most important thing is like Mihnea said in one post long time ago, "after I figure out the constants and values everything got straight forward". So that is where I want to get, I might give up in the middle who knows, but I had create this thread to see if someone would also get involved. Two heads think better than one.

Billman,

check thi site for more info on Hondata www.hondata.com , and you gonna see it how it works, also there is this one www.tunewithcrome.com, but this is only for Hondas.

Thanks for all the help and answers I am getting as this will help me and others that want to find out more about the Motronic (in my case knowing the RS2 ECU is enough).

[Mihnea]

Sorry, you can ask S2dude and he'll confirm, I never told him to remove his info, nor did I actually see it...

I assume you was the one who requested s2dude to remove the info he wrote. That's someting I'd consider opposite to helping.

I've been thinking about programming a hondata type sw for my own joy. Finding a reasonably priced emu is the problem. Xtronics has its problems too...

Let's give some more hints to cid to keep him going. 0x3A, 0x3F, 0x38 and 0x37 are figured out correctly.

[Jamo]

If you start jacking the fuel tables to make up for larger injectors(which is what most tuners are doing)you have to retune every condition that was factory tuned.This is not desirable and we would like to avoid this."

Sweeping statement that probably not wise to post.

[Billman]

Very interesting, please Continue sending infos. Even if CID-we never get to the point to figure the Motronic out it is still veryy interesting.

How does this Hondata works?

[porkkis]

I assume you was the one who requested s2dude to remove the info he wrote. That's someting I'd consider opposite to helping.

I've been thinking about programming a hondata type sw for my own joy. Finding a reasonably priced emu is the problem. Xtronics has its problems too...

Let's give some more hints to cid to keep him going. 0x3A, 0x3F, 0x38 and 0x37 are figured out correctly.

[Mihnea]

If I had more time available, I would have definitely started working on an S2/S4/S6/RS2 Hondata type of program, but unfortunately I don't have the time or the funds involved in developing something like this from scratch....

[Mihnea]

It's good to see that some people actually got their fingers out of their *****es and figured some stuff out by themselves. It has cost me way too much time and money to get where I am so this is why I can't really help out a lot, but it sounds like some people are definitely on the right track. Now whether they'll figure out all the subtleties of M2.3.2 or not, only time will tell. I'm not bothered about people figuring stuff out by themselves, as S2s only become scarcer and the only cars I get to tune now are high HP cars where non-realtime tuning can be fatal in a split second, so I'm not worried at all.


Mihnea

[kwlw]

hmm.. if one could find out what CPU's the motronic units use, then one might be able to emulate the whole process in a de****** like IDA Pro. At least it should give some info on where the program searches for values

CPU's are 8051 clones by siemens SAB80C535. IDA will not help you a lot, because inputs and outputs are multiplexed. Some day I will post that data here , but not this year...

Sau

[Jensk]

hmm.. if one could find out what CPU's the motronic units use, then one might be able to emulate the whole process in a de****** like IDA Pro. At least it should give some info on where the program searches for values

[cid]

I have got a emulator but have only used it in read/burn mode. Its a dataman S4 (just like my audi ) Here is a link. http://www.digitalgraphics.com.au/datas4.html

Would this be upto the job of this work eg enough memory/fast enough? This is very interesting to get into.. Cheers des

I think is up to the job. But you need an emulator with a trace, and usually the trace function is on a chip tuning softwware, like Tuner Pro or Winols.

[diesel des]

I have got a emulator but have only used it in read/burn mode. Its a dataman S4 (just like my audi ) Here is a link. http://www.digitalgraphics.com.au/datas4.html

Would this be upto the job of this work eg enough memory/fast enough? This is very interesting to get into.. Cheers des

[cid]

porkkis,

Ok I see it now. I though it should have one, because what the eprom sees it is voltage, so you need to now that a X voltage is equal to a X grams/s of actual mass of air. Just like in any MAP sensor. So from 0-5V is like 10-100 grams/s, if you know that then you tune the engine over that. This to me is a transfer function from a electrical signal to a physical value. Now on a table you gonna have the LOAD axis that can be MAP or MAF, and most of the software I know that are dedicated shows the values as an actual MAP or MAF value. So if you change the MAF for another that goes from 10-120 grams/s you only need to make a new trasnfer function from 0 - 5V in respect to the new values. Because if the ECU uses the value in voltage, that means that a 2,5V was 45 grams/s and now is 55 grams/sec (for exampl), so you would need to tune the entire fuel and ignitions table. But if the ECU goes into a transfer function, the tables are not going to chaneg much, as you are saying that at 45 grams/sec you need a x amount of fuel (it does not matter if was 2,5V and now is 3V). So, at the end it does not matter which MAF sensor you are using as long the transfer table is correct.

Anyway this is not an easy task. Perhaps I should leave this. I dont plan to enter in the chip tuning business anyway, and I sold my RS2. Basically I am just loosing my time. Would be good if someone could do to the Audi S motronic units (from 92-95) what some people had done to the Honda ECUs (92-95), where a group of people with a variety of skills got together and developed a software for tuning those ECUs. It has a free and a paid version, I dont know if anyone has ever seen ou heard of Crome. But if we could do something similar would be great for those people that likes to tune their own engines.

Someone could say what would gonna happen to MTM and such companies, not much we are talking here about only a few cars, and more this kind of software would only be usefull for someone with the knowledge to tune an engine, because for someone that has not this knowlegd is better to look a chip tuning company or he will blow his engine.