Launch control for Motronic

[A80Avant]

sure, i will comment there, its just that the thread took a different turn towards a wider debate (motronic vs aftermarket)

ill start another thread then!

[prj]

You don't have to clean the MAF "every time"...
Once flatfoot shift is done (and optional antilag), I don't see anymore reason to go VEMS on cars under 550hp.

Also, most reasons that car "does not boost right" etc, is because tuners change 6 maps.
I said that before.
If you change 6 maps maybe you will get nice numbers on the dyno and the car will work in a very narrow band of conditions, but it is not the way to tune... all the problems with it not running right, not boosting right etc at high power levels is because of bad calibration.

Anyway, I have a MAF thread open - comment there. Stick to launch control in this thread.

[A80Avant]

I too fancy the idea of motronic being able to see and be tuned with a larger MAF and have no issues, let alone a good/better consumption than VEMS. BUT one thing that still is a cause of concern for me and one of the reasons for going to VEMS and making the effort of learning how to tune it, is the fact that i dont have to search for the tuner everytime the car doesnt boost right and doesnt pop a code as well, everytime that i need to clean the MAF in order to see the boost im supposed to, everytime there is a minor glitch that the motronic is picking up, is creating problems but doesnt throw a code at you to know where to look for and what to do!

If i were to stick to 1 setup and not change it again, then yes, i would consider doing a custom motronic map with that maf and use it. I would probably also keep VEMS though because the versatility that one gives the other loses, while the accuracy that motronic has, VEMS looses.
if i manage to get VEMS to be as economical as motronic, then ill probably stick with VEMS. In all fairness, im a hobbist tuner, and havent even been on a dyno to check what the best MBT is, so we'll see!

[S2central.net]

Its OK to be sceptical I suppose - especially after all these years with the mindset that such things cannot be changed - it took someone with a lot of skill in disassembly to reverse engineer. The ECU still holds some secrets for sure but together we are slowly unravelling them.

Lets get this thread back to launch control folks and new threads will appear on the HFM5 conversion in due course !

[Jamo]

@Jamo - Dmitri has fundamentally solved this problem through a LOT of hard work on the code and maths behind it... I have sanity checked his approach and it is sound - this is no smoke and mirrors. It will take a little time and testing to make the HFM5 installation elegant and PROVE it on a dyno (or g meter) somewhere - but its coming !

Now you don't need to look at aftermarket ECUs for turbos blowing harder than ~400bhp - it is NOT a fundamental limitation in Motronic - it is buried in the details of the factory load calculation code that no amount of map changes will reveal.

I'm not doubting the hard work and effort in fact it's applaudable, however I am a qualified software tester, programmer and support engineer by trade, no matter how much someone can tell it WILL work a test proven working stated on the stated platform will also help people commit resources aka money

It is not an unreasonable question that should be replied to with scorn as a lot of people will think the same, there are a lot of cowboy tuners out there who have great reputations ( Jogi730 has been a victim ).

If it worked 100% I would consider changing back from VEMS as MAF is superior to speed density at low load however as you are then committing to a tune once and can't fine tune yourself ala aftermarket it is not unfair to ask for examples of said tune once.

[Jamo]

The car it's running on is a K26/K27 car, and it does not get over 4.5V on the MAF...
It also gets around 205-210 LOAD on RS2 code right now, there is enough LOAD to go to 500+ hp, and rise can be programmed slower later on.

All this misconception about Motronic being untuneable is because most tuners change exactly 6 maps in the ECU. Then cry when that approach stops working around 400 hp.

Now we are getting somewhere that's the kind of information i'm looking for

[S2central.net]

@Jamo - Dmitri has fundamentally solved this problem through a LOT of hard work on the code and maths behind it... I have sanity checked his approach and it is sound - this is no smoke and mirrors. It will take a little time and testing to make the HFM5 installation elegant and PROVE it on a dyno (or g meter) somewhere - but its coming !

Now you don't need to look at aftermarket ECUs for turbos blowing harder than ~400bhp - it is NOT a fundamental limitation in Motronic - it is buried in the details of the factory load calculation code that no amount of map changes will reveal.

[S2central.net]

As for HFM5 - dmitri and I have been kicking it around - he unpicked the low levels of the load measurement code and I am looking at best ways to connectorise the upgrade cleanly and optimise some ECU internal mods as part of a 'chiptune' package... these will almost certainly be custom mapped affairs because of importance to get AFR and EGT correct on 400+ machines - basically for anyone running turbos bigger than RS2. In theory it might be possible to get a generic package for 3071 or 3076 for example.

There will be more announcements in due course but if anyone in UK/IE wants to be a guinea pig for Beta tests then I am all ears.

[prj]

Granted dynos of 2.7 BiT show the MAF working up to that BHP but are no indication of this modification of this working on an m2.3.2 with your tuning on an I5 which would be what I would or certainly any sceptic would want to see.
What is the spec of the test car this is running on?
How much is the modification and tuning?

The problem was the MAF maxing out. Now it doesn't max out anymore.
The ECU can measure the correct amount of air, so it can inject the correct amount of fuel and have correct timing.
So why wouldn't it "work"?

The car it's running on is a K26/K27 car, and it does not get over 4.5V on the MAF...
It also gets around 205-210 LOAD on RS2 code right now, there is enough LOAD to go to 500+ hp, and rise can be programmed slower later on.

All this misconception about Motronic being untuneable is because most tuners change exactly 6 maps in the ECU. Then cry when that approach stops working around 400 hp.

As for the "sceptics":

[Jamo]

Global MAF hating is mainly down to the price of the replacement part which quite frankly considering how wide place they are in cars is not understandable.

Yes, but for HFM5 the replacement cost is 60 EUR.

O.k Good price

Have you got details of this conversion with the RS4 maf, is coding only or is it bespoke to your tuning only i.e car has to be tuned by yourself

There will not be details of this released. I worked on this for close to half a year.

Doesn't directly answer my question but I take it from that response that the car has to be tuned by yourself for the HFMS MAF

Have you example car projects working close to these power levels, threads, dyno's etc ?

No dyno yet, but I have a test car with it, and so far everything is fine.

If you want an example of this MAF, you can take some dynos from 2.7 BiT, which will show you that the RS4 MAF works to 600hp.
No different for M2.3.2.

Granted dynos of 2.7 BiT show the MAF working up to that BHP but are no indication of this modification of this working on an m2.3.2 with your tuning on an I5 which would be what I would or certainly any sceptic would want to see.
What is the spec of the test car this is running on?
How much is the modification and tuning?

[nip]

Okay, so yes, it's bigger.

ok cheers for quick replys,

[prj]

Okay, so yes, it's bigger.

[nip]

Should be bigger, but I don't see what an M5 has to do with anything.

We are talking about HFM5.
Hot-film MAF 5.

Nothing to do with an M5. The MAF is from an Audi RS4.

sorry meant to say rs4 maf

[prj]

Should be bigger, but I don't see what an M5 has to do with anything.

We are talking about HFM5.
Hot-film MAF 5.

Nothing to do with an M5. The MAF is from an Audi RS4.
And the Audi RS4 MAF has 92 or 93mm outer diameter.

[nip]

I don't see why the MAF should be moved onto the pressure side. No reason to. Especially with a HFM5.

I cold add antilag, but people will melt their turbine and exhaust manifold and then blame me for it.
No thanks.

ok, 1 last question is the m5 maf smaller than the s2 one
cheers nip