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5cyl engine, 60-2 without hall - wasted spark, how to

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  • #31
    Originally posted by gnutz2 View Post
    Just to clarify the wasted spark argument.
    ...you need to run the same timing as a 10 cyl engine but move the outputs to a different order...
    Skipping a beat is feasable like OEM's do to save fuel by cutting cylinders on symmetric engines.
    Example: IL6 firing 1-5-3-6-2-4 => 1-X-3-X-2-X

    For a V10 it depends if it's a split journal/crossplane V10 if i'm right.
    Those fire two cilinders at a time on opposed banks.
    Can't find the Audi V10 firing order, but it could be 1-6-2-7-4-9-5-10-3-8 if journal separation angles are alike the ones we run.

    Only firing order i can find (which makes more sense 2nd order balance wise) is 1-6-5-10-2-7-3-8-4-9, so that would mean that you need to swap the output pins indeed, or reconfigure it in the output table.

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    • #32
      Firing angles must be set to this (the first 5 anyway)



      And the coils must be wired like this, not in the usual firing order

      CYL 1 5 2 3 4
      O/P 1 2 3 4 5

      Some confusion arises when people think wasted means one cylinder has to share one coil (or output), the coils are dedicated but fire every revolution of the engine.

      I have no way of tuning injection angles and i dont run individual cylinder knock detection so this setup works for me but still allows me full control over my AFR and ignition.
      The ONLY S2 Golf!
      http://www.s2forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19402
      10.42@138mph
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0wnkkOfFpXg

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      • #33
        I'm not sure but I think this how KMS m25 works on 5cyl. No cam sensor and all injectors spray on every cycle.

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        • #34
          Just to clarify for those that are trying to do this. As has been mentioned, yes its possible to run a 5 cylinder wasted spark, however no it is not possible at the moment to do it on vems. The firmware currently only supports 8 ignition phases. Because the phases are 72 degrees apart with no overlap, you need 10 to do waste spark on an I5.
          Marc Swanson
          Proprietor, EFI Express
          95.5 //S6 Avant
          90' Coupe Quattro V8 4.2L twin turbo
          93' //S4
          83' UrQ
          97' F250 7.3 diesel

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          • #35
            A question related to this.

            Let's say you wanted to run VEMS in parallel with the stock ECU, because of a TCM controlled auto trans.

            Is it possible to share the crank trigger sensor, cam shaft position sensor and the vehicle speed sensor?
            I read on diyautotune that it might be possible if pullup resistors are removed from the standalone ECU.
            http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_arti...n_parallel.htm
            '96 UrS6 auto PRJ chipped E85
            '95 80Q AEB VEMS E85

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            • #36
              Forget running them in tandem.
              Either swap to manual trans or emulate the signals via VEMS.

              IIRC you need a scaled TPS signal output, and also an input which when active will reduce torque.
              http://tuner.ee - http://www.facebook.com/tuner.ee

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              • #37
                Originally posted by prj View Post
                Forget running them in tandem.
                Either swap to manual trans or emulate the signals via VEMS.

                IIRC you need a scaled TPS signal output, and also an input which when active will reduce torque.
                What does emulate the signals via VEMS mean?

                From what I have read, a TPS signal is a voltage signal. This cannot be shared?

                This would not be applied on my S6, but on an AEB auto swapped 80.
                Finding a manual AEB and trans in Thailand is VERY hard and more expensive than auto.

                My preference would be if you could chip this package, but I know you do not like to make a generic tune. Not sure I could afford flying you out here to do the work, unless you planned to come here for holiday.

                Would love to get a chip set from you for:
                AEB auto, with 550cc ev14 injectors, stock K03, running E85. However, I might switch to FrankenTurbo F21 later.

                The auto trans will be upgraded by 517trans. TC first, as this is the weak link in the 5hp19fl.

                If this is possible, I will forget about VEMSing an automatic.
                '96 UrS6 auto PRJ chipped E85
                '95 80Q AEB VEMS E85

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                • #38
                  Ah, if it's AEB, then that's a whole different story.
                  That said, a 01E box should work with the AEB...

                  It's possible to remap the existing ECU as well. Will need good logs RPM, AFR, Boost from external datalogger as well as VAG-COM logs of certain measuring blocks.
                  It is definitely doable though, the mods are not that severe...

                  I would advise against changing turbo though, as most likely the auto trans will not handle it.
                  http://tuner.ee - http://www.facebook.com/tuner.ee

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by prj View Post
                    Ah, if it's AEB, then that's a whole different story.
                    That said, a 01E box should work with the AEB...

                    It's possible to remap the existing ECU as well. Will need good logs RPM, AFR, Boost from external datalogger as well as VAG-COM logs of certain measuring blocks.
                    It is definitely doable though, the mods are not that severe...

                    I would advise against changing turbo though, as most likely the auto trans will not handle it.
                    I am sure a 01E would work very well with an AEB, however I could not afford importing one plus the car would stay fwd. The there is the problem that the crank output flange on the manual and auto AEB is different and not easily modified.

                    AEB is narrowband. I am more than willing to make logs, once the swap has been done.

                    I have done research on the 5hp19FL. It is mechanically the same as the FLA (found in the B5 S4 tip), but it is the TC that cannot handle torque higher than 310Nm. With an upgraded TC, it can handle the same as the FLA, which is rated input torque 420Nm. An upgraded valvebody is recommended if going higher.

                    Lets say I use the parts a.m. besides the F21, what kind of HP/TQ/bar could I see?

                    edit: maybe I should PM you instead?
                    '96 UrS6 auto PRJ chipped E85
                    '95 80Q AEB VEMS E85

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                    • #40
                      Maybe you should PM me. Also I think you should consider a better car as a base for tuning.
                      Doing all those mods (bigger turbo, valve body etc) on a FWD auto 1.8T just does not make any sense in my mind...

                      I understand if you want E85 and K03, but going further than that seems lots of money for little gain, as it will just spin the front wheel all the time (it will already do that with K03 on E85).
                      http://tuner.ee - http://www.facebook.com/tuner.ee

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