Rich knock/Detonation.Anyone?

[prj]

With that timing i'm pretty sure it's knock.

The timing map is inverse on that car. Mid range high, top end low etc...

[KRIENG]

yes you right

Zone I for test more advance = more pull
Zone II for safe wait for knock detect It can be more advance
Zone III don't allow wait for knock detect It can be more advance

Zone I :
I found when long drive 1,2,3 gear no noise but 4,5 gear have some noise
may be boost DC depend on gear can fixed it
and when engine cold a little noise below 2000 rpm

[KRIENG]

Hi Billman this link from my car
thank you for yours help.

http://www.vemssupport.com/forum/ind....html#msg19983

I found my spark plug's gone bad

when high boost (>240kpa) will misfire and knock is appear and lean occur

[KRIENG]

Help Pop two picture is
VE122: 3258 Rpm, 227 kpa VE 121
VE108: 4641 Rpm, 260 kpa VE108 <-------
VE108 some thing wrong I think soft Samco

Pop file name is lower right in my Pic it easy to compare

MAT/TPS Fuel is a problem it make VE change

[Billman]

DO NOT DEPEND ON THE VEMS READING ABOUT KNOCK. IT IS NOT SAFE YET.

Listen with your ears or another device.

[A80Avant]

agree on Billman on this one.

do not depend on what the knock sensors 'think' its knock, as even a misfire will or could be regarded as knock from them. YOu need good set of earphones with your tuning session, its widely on the internet what knock sounds like on those, just make or buy them, disregard what the ECU thinks its knock, fix the misfire if you have bad connections of any sort and tune.

i never relied on knock sensors on motronic either as sometimes i could even hear the engine knocking and the ECU did nothing, neither produced any fault codes OR reduced timing to avoid it. SO personally, i dont trust them on this age of ECU. I only trust my ears and make it a tad safer whilst loosing some Nm of torque. So what?

[prj]

i never relied on knock sensors on motronic either as sometimes i could even hear the engine knocking and the ECU did nothing, neither produced any fault codes OR reduced timing to avoid it. SO personally, i dont trust them on this age of ECU. I only trust my ears and make it a tad safer whilst loosing some Nm of torque. So what?

Maxed knock maps and incorrectly torqued knock sensors will do this all day long
But please, refrain from making statements like these. Motronic has cylinder-individual noise maps which were calibrated on an engine dyno. And it's pretty damn awesome at seeing knock.

After mapping over 100 of these cars, I am probably a bit better qualified to say this than you.

As for looking at raw sensor values as a waveform it is not very useful. You at least need to make sure that this waveform has accurate knock window monitoring, or you will see all kind of stuff on the graph, as Vasilis said.
Knock window is used when the engine management knows engine phase, and can determine which cylinder is firing. The ECU management should then be monitoring only the knock sensor related to the current cylinder, and only for a very short period of time. That way the only thing that is perceived and integrated over is the actual moment of combustion during the time that the flame front propagates.

The fact that you have two sensor graphs (1 and 2) on there, already shows that this is not being done. You would normally have only one line, since there is no two cylinders firing at the same time in an I5 otto engine. The additional leaning of lambda shows that most likely you are seeing misfire.

If you just monitor knock sensor voltage, like you are doing now, then that will change even with RPM and so on, as the valve train becomes more noisy at higher loads.
The human ear is amazingly good at distinguishing knock from other things. Of course it can not determine which cylinder is knocking, but as long as you attach a solid mic to somewhere on the block, and are not hearing impaired, you will hear almost all events.

[prj]

As an illustration you can see this image that I have attached. It is from a 1.8T AJQ making over 400hp. Logged at 20 samples/sec

You can see how knock voltage goes up with RPM, yet the knock retard stays about the same throughout the pull.

The ECU is processing it's noise maps and the knock control is always adaptive to the noise. The ECU never looks at absolute values, it integrates over a certain time period, and then it looks for a peak in this time period. This time period is called the knock window.

[A80Avant]

Dmitri,
i can see that no matter how much time passes, you still have the same frame of mind that YOU know and the rest dont, so i wont fall to your level of communication once again. Sorry.

For the rest of the meaningless information you are supplying to us, in regards to your precious motronic and it's knock capabilities, all i will say is your advice you gave to Ross, as soon as his RS2 went into spilling my guts out with coolant, and a gasket was suspected being blown off, while you suggested as well that their might be knock happening that may have caused his issues.... That is after YOUR tune, your checks and obviously working knock sensors.

For the record, 99% of professional tuners of world rally cars prefer or tune without knock sensors as they are not working to perfection and robbing power when needed. SO tuning with your ear is far better and safer.

I know of many stock/non stock cars which knocked and their knocking ECU mapping had been untouched. SO no matter how many times you will say it, KNOCK SENSING ON THESE CARS IS NOT YOUR SOLUTION TO BEST TUNING. In my opinion ANY tuner who tunes like that and just relies on the knock sensors to do their job, is making the customer's car to live on the edge.

That is my opinion, and i will NOT refrain from saying it. If it harms your tuning agenda, IDGAF! But people that are clueless about tuning and trust those who tune, need to be aware.

Now do us a favor, and go post on a motronic related forum, leaving us who play with kids ECUs alone, will ya?

[Sonic]

Just to clarify when Dmitri remapped my car he was sat there for most of the time with a pair of headphones listening to the engine.

[A80Avant]

which makes me wonder then why are there all these posts about the abilities of knock sensing when even Dmitri agrees with me that listening for it is the best.

its just his character then to try and irritate people.

i knew there were more than one reason to stay away from the forum... how nice is it to realise they are still here the moment you return. Only to realise its not worth it again.

well have fun guys!

[Jamo]

[Sonic]

which makes me wonder then why are there all these posts about the abilities of knock sensing when even Dmitri agrees with me that listening for it is the best.

its just his character then to try and irritate people.

i knew there were more than one reason to stay away from the forum... how nice is it to realise they are still here the moment you return. Only to realise its not worth it again.

well have fun guys!

Do stick around mate

[prj]

Dmitri,
i can see that no matter how much time passes, you still have the same frame of mind that YOU know and the rest dont, so i wont fall to your level of communication once again. Sorry.

For the rest of the meaningless information you are supplying to us, in regards to your precious motronic and it's knock capabilities, all i will say is your advice you gave to Ross, as soon as his RS2 went into spilling my guts out with coolant, and a gasket was suspected being blown off, while you suggested as well that their might be knock happening that may have caused his issues.... That is after YOUR tune, your checks and obviously working knock sensors.

Huh? This just baffles me. Ross had a coolant leak, and his MFTS was unplugged, due to this he was unable to see anything. So he ran it like that (without any coolant) for an extended period of time (for days) and his head most likely warped due to the overheating. I have this first hand, no idea where you are getting your information from.

Effectively you are trying to blame me that he had a coolant leak, and failed to notice it. Maybe you would like to blame me and my mapping for flat tyres as well?

The rest of your post is just more mindless rambling of an irate person, so I will not even reply to that.

Just to clarify when Dmitri remapped my car he was sat there for most of the time with a pair of headphones listening to the engine.

I do this as a safety net. It has saved a few engines in cases where the knock sensors were installed incorrectly or the engine was so far from the stock configuration that the OEM knock control needed to be recalibrated.
On your engine the knock recognition worked perfectly, and every click heard through the headphones was visible in the logs, and with ECU reaction retarding the ignition timing and adding fuel.
Also, on ME7 and M3.8.x I do not use any headphones...

I also know for a fact that MRC do not use headphones either even on this old Motronic.