Decided!

[martinjs]

When using the RS2 bracket and 314 disk, doesn't the pad overhang the disk by a few mm, the brackets i made had the pad sitting 1mm inside the outer edge of the disk. So thaty there was enough clearence for a 314 disk and 996 caliper under a 16" avus.

[BRY]

Right then - where's all the RS2/996 upgraded folk for the final word on this... I've been round this subject many times on previous threads and was absolutely sure this had been checked before.

Based on 1st hand accounts of what I read here - I chose the RS2/996 option so that I could run inside the 16" Avus (winter wheels actually)... and now Mike tells me there are heat related clearance problems. Confused and not a little bit hacked off !

Anybody care to share photos of clearance - hot and cold - plus any idea of measurements - especially when hot ?

Paul

Everyone I know has come to the conclusion that they need custom brackets to fit 314mm discs under 16" Avus wheels due to not wanting to chance the caliper being gouged by stones etc. I have not heard about any wheel to caliper contact.
Waveydavey discovered that you get some clearance buy using the Seat caliper bracket and machining it down to suit the 314mm disc, indeed, you can get as much as possible with a 314mm disc by doing this. This bracket has the excess material on it.
People with 17"+ wheels can also use the Seat bracket but what's the point when there is a bracket available off the shelf - RS2 brackets. These can be used with 323mm discs. You bend the spring retainers, not the pins!
Just my experience and not me telling people how to fit their brakes!

[daxyz]

Well this could all turn out to be a bit of a disaster! I've already ordered all the bits to go down the 996 monoblock, 323mm disc on RS2 carrier route - all behind standard 16" Avus wheels

However I have just had to accept that there is a risk that this might not all fit behind the wheels

I am sure that a number of folks have been thro this many times before and we MUST be able to get a definitive answer stright from the horses mouth.

But I will be starting this upgrade next week after I'm back from Goodwood so if we're still all confused then I will let you know whether it all fitted or if I'm off to see the bank manager for an overdraft!!

Derek.

[waveydavey]

Well this could all turn out to be a bit of a disaster! I've already ordered all the bits to go down the 996 monoblock, 323mm disc on RS2 carrier route - all behind standard 16" Avus wheels

However I have just had to accept that there is a risk that this might not all fit behind the wheels

Derek.

As I understand it the situation is as follows

Using the RS2 carriers and 996 calipers it will fit under a 16" Avus wheel but you will have approx 1.5 - 2 mm clearance between the caliper and wheel. This will not change whether you use 323mm discs or 314mm ones because the caliper will be in exactly the same position. With 314mm discs the pad overhangs the edge of the disc and with 323 mm discs the pad runs just inside the disc edge. Some people claim there is sufficient clearance and some claim there is not. Either way it is very tight.

By using the SEAT mounts and having them machined to maximise the clearance between the wheel and caliper you can get 3.5 mm clearance when using 314mm discs. This is the situation I have on my car.

With 323mm discs you cannot increase the wheel - caliper clearance as the pad will already be sitting just inside the outer edge of the disc and if you pull it in any tighter you will run the risk of the disc fouling on the inside of the caliper and pad retaining clip.

I hope this clarifies things for you.

[Alistair C]

OK - let me try for a definitive answer!
(EDIT - though bry and waveydavey have already provided very good answers!)

996 calipers, RS2 Brackets, RS2 hardlines and 314 / 323 x30 disks.This all bolts up without any machining and it'll work 'off the shelf'.
Only down side was that -on mine- the calipers were so close to the wheels that, at times, the inherent flex in the wheels allowed the calipers to touch the rotating wheel rims.
This was nothing to do with heat - just flex.

With it all bolted together, the pads overlapped the edge of the disk by 1 perhaps 1.5mm. There is also a fair bit of clearance between the disk and the caliper bridgeing.
As a result of this, it is apparently possible to replace the 314mm disk with a 323mm disk. By doing this, the pads, rather than overlapping the disk, will now sit a 2 or 3mm inside the edges of the disk. This is all fine, but by doing this, you're allowing the edge of the disk to run much closer to the caliper's bridgeing. This has been reported as causing problems in the following way:

with alot of heat, the disk can apparently increase in diameter to such a degree that it'll interfere with the pad retaining springs. Apparently this can all be bent back - but it is still running close.

996 calipers, SEAT brackets, RS2 hardlines and 314 / 323 x30 disks.
The seat calipers are CNC machined rather than cast - whether by design or by coincidence, these brackets are much thicker than the RS2 items. To make them fit, Approx 6mm needs milling from the caliper mounting face and 3mm needs milling from the hub mounting face (approx measurements from waveydavey). This then positions the caliper in the 'correct position' for 314mm disks.

I assume this means there is no longer a 1mm pad overhang. By default, if this is the case, the 323mm disks would be an even tighter squeeze up against the pad retaining springs. However, if you're having the brackets machined to fit your own requirements and you know you're planning a 323 conversion, you'd just have less taken off the caliper mounting surface.

I've not seen a machined SEAT caliper in the flesh, so can't really comment on how it looks and how much the strength would be affected, but those who have done the work say it looks plenty 'meaty' enough - even after the conversion for 314 mounting.

If that is the case, then it does indeed sound like a better bet than using the RS2 brackets.
I say this because if you're using 314mm disks - you can adapt the mounting position to optimise clearance between the OEM 16" wheels,
and if you're going for 323mm disks - you can again adapt the bracket to position the pads right out at the edge of the disk rim (assuming now you have 17" or larger wheels)

996 calipers, CUSTOM Brackets, RS2 hardlines and 314 / 323 x30 disks.
Same as the SEAT brackets - though you have the luxury of helicoiling / over-speccing the materials if you so desire.

Hope this hasn't confused the issue more than before.
I'll try to modify this post if any conflicting info comes in!

[porkkis]

Only down side was that -on mine- the calipers were so close to the wheels that, at times, the inherent flex in the suspension / mounting components allowed the calipers to touch the rotating wheels.

There are absolutely no flex parts between the caliper and the wheel. Your wheel bearings are loose or worn if the caliper to wheel clearance changes...

Btw I'm currently installing RS2 std calipers + 2,5mm hub side machined
Seat carriers + 314 discs.

I'll post photos with avus wheels when installed. Soon.

[Alistair C]

EDITED:
there is always going to be flex in my mind:

looking at the suspension setup, yeah I guess there shouldn't be any movement, but with the wheels being relatively large castings and with small cross sectional body, I don't expect it'd take much of a pot-hole to make the rim flex a bit.......

[porkkis]

Crappy wheels could flex a bit yes.

What are uprights?

[newsh]

Paul

I'm pretty sure from my memories of Alistair's first install of this setup, that it does fit, its just really close, like 2-3mm clearance, Alistair ran it like this for a while and then found that one of the calipers had touched the rim, either because of heat or spirited driving.. he then had a couple or 3mm machined off the brackets and discs to give a more sensible clearance.
I'm running a set of Martinjs brackets and A8 discs with the 996s and have about 3mm clearance, my discs are un modified I have had one instance of a small tarry stone stuck between caliper and rim, strangely it stayed stuck to the caliper and traveled round the rim for a few miles till I'd sussed out what was happening and made a bit of a groove in the rim, not a problem really as it soon got covered in brake dust The point is that the tight spot is very narrow, imagine the cross section between a bowler hat and a gently sloping ceiling and you'll get the idea, the clearance could be increased by spacing the wheels out a tad too. I figured I would eventually get bigger wheels and the problem would change to too much clearance again

On the subject of the pad locating pins, these just have to be shortened to get the disc in between them, the 996s must have thinner discs, they can be ground off with an angle grinder, this is what I did, and someone has since discovered that they are a push fit and can be just pushed into the caliper by a couple of mm to get the required clearance.

[newsh]

Oops I didn't read the whole thread!

And I cant remember if my discs are 323 or 314

Senior moment eh?

Useless

[Dave cook]

has anyone got a picture of these Seat caliper brackets

[HPmuirt]

has anyone got a picture of these Seat caliper brackets

Hi folks,

As I mentioned, I am going with the 996 Monoblock with 314x30mm discs, Seat carriers and RS2 hard lines. As requested, below is a piccie of the Seat carriers after the 2 surfaces have been machined down as described in previous posts (the silver surfaces have been machined, the gold sides show the original coating)
As you can see, they are meaty pieces of kit

Cheers n

Si

[S2central.net]

OK - thanks to Alistair C and others for the BTDT info on this one. ~2mm clearance on the Avus rims (with 996 calipers and RS2 carriers) will be plenty enough for me - these are going to be relegated to winter rims and so won't be getting punished to a point that heat is going to give me clearance problems.

If all else fails, then a 1 or 2mm wheel spacer will give me more clearance and peace of mind - better to do that than have seasonal brake changes as determined by wheels. I still have that set of 8x18 RS6 wheels (collecting dust in a relatives shed) to go on for cryin out loud...

Given whats been said about the 323mm discs, I may well try the pin-bending trick before committing them to being machine down to 322mm.

Cheers again !


Paul

[porkkis]

Here we go:

RS2 "small" calipers and 314mm A8 discs and Seat carriers with 2,5mm machined off from the hub side



And clearance in Avus 16" wheel. About 5mm.



And in my 17" Superturismos

[Greg_S]

We had a look at a set of these last night and it is a neat way of doing it and works out cheaper than buying the RS2 brackets too. Look forward to seeing what they are like once they are fitted