Conrod Options

[mbcouple]

Sorry about the email thing, i guess its a defualt, i will make sure its turned on. When i talked to him, he had done similar rods, like vw's. No, standard rods used in audis are not rifle drilled. Rifle drilling puts a hole throught the rod connecting the big end to the small end. When the crank rotates it forces oil up to the small end, and facilitates pin oiling. Its more important with a dry-sump system, which i will be running later next year. You could get away fine with out the cost, and it would save you a bunch of money. My wiseco pistons will be bigger than stock, so the internal lightening of the piston should yeild a similar to stock wieght. I wanted a clean virgin round bore, so i punched it out a full mm to do so. The big advantage is the cr reduction. I am dropping mine down to 8.5:1 in reverence to the ur-q's of old which ran this cr. It will allow you to run much more boost without detonation. If you were going to do pistons, and your bore was clean, i would just get the propper size piston, and save yourself some machine work. The standard costs for pistons is about $110 though wiseco. Get want you want. If you dont want to run massive boost, 9:1 may be better for your application. I am not a professional engine builder, this is my hobby. I have only been in audis a little over a year now. I am truely a mercedes man at heart, and wouldnt want to guide you in the wrong direction for your needs. What do you want from your car, and maybe myself and the rest of the forum member can help you decide what you really need.
Hans

[auditude]

Sorry about the email thing, i guess its a defualt, i will make sure its turned on. When i talked to him, he had done similar rods, like vw's. No, standard rods used in audis are not rifle drilled. Rifle drilling puts a hole throught the rod connecting the big end to the small end. When the crank rotates it forces oil up to the small end, and facilitates pin oiling. Its more important with a dry-sump system, which i will be running later next year. You could get away fine with out the cost, and it would save you a bunch of money. My wiseco pistons will be bigger than stock, so the internal lightening of the piston should yeild a similar to stock wieght. I wanted a clean virgin round bore, so i punched it out a full mm to do so. The big advantage is the cr reduction. I am dropping mine down to 8.5:1 in reverence to the ur-q's of old which ran this cr. It will allow you to run much more boost without detonation. If you were going to do pistons, and your bore was clean, i would just get the propper size piston, and save yourself some machine work. The standard costs for pistons is about $110 though wiseco. Get want you want. If you dont want to run massive boost, 9:1 may be better for your application. I am not a professional engine builder, this is my hobby. I have only been in audis a little over a year now. I am truely a mercedes man at heart, and wouldnt want to guide you in the wrong direction for your needs. What do you want from your car, and maybe myself and the rest of the forum member can help you decide what you really need.
Hans

Hi Hans,

Okay, sounds good. Let's just focus on the Cunningham rods for me then. I know I will be wanting to upgrade the rods, but I haven't opened the motor yet so I don't know the condition of the bores.

I do plan on running some pretty high boost in the motor. I'm getting an RS Tuning tubular header and have a Wagner intake with the front mounted throttle body, and 7A exhaust cam. I figure I'll be using a Garrett GT30R turbo, and want to run as much boost as the motor will handle. This may mean that I'll want to lower the c/r to 8.5:1 to take advantage of the rest of the parts. I understand the MB urq's ran 8.6:1 c/r on the dual knock sensor 10vt's. 8.5:1 seems to be a sweet spot for running lots of boost, and I believe it is even suggested in the Maximum Boost book.

I don't have plans to run a dry sump, and since the motor has piston squirters already I think I'll not get the rifle drilling, which will save on cost and strength. Your email thing still isn't turned on, at the time of this post.

Since you mentioned doing a group buy, perhaps you could start a thread in the group buy topic? It sounds like we only need two other folks to meet the 20 same-rod requirement.

Thanks,

Ken

[mbcouple]

I think you would definately benefit from lower cr pistons. The thing you want to think of is lead time. The rods will proabable take around 10 weeks, and the pistons around 9 weeks give or take on both. So, if you only want to save on time/labor, it would be best to order them at the same time, and not have to balance the crank twice. Then again, once you change the cr, and turbo, you will need to re-map the ecu or get a standalone system. By the time we get our engine goodies, aem is planning on relasing a true standalone generic ecu. Something i think we have all been waiting for. It truely is a slipery slope. I checked, and it says that i am allowed to recieve email from the list, but i will just post my address hans14914 (at) yahoo (dot) com
Hans

[auditude]

I think you would definately benefit from lower cr pistons. The thing you want to think of is lead time. The rods will proabable take around 10 weeks, and the pistons around 9 weeks give or take on both. So, if you only want to save on time/labor, it would be best to order them at the same time, and not have to balance the crank twice. Then again, once you change the cr, and turbo, you will need to re-map the ecu or get a standalone system. By the time we get our engine goodies, aem is planning on relasing a true standalone generic ecu. Something i think we have all been waiting for. It truely is a slipery slope. I checked, and it says that i am allowed to recieve email from the list, but i will just post my address hans14914 (at) yahoo (dot) com
Hans

I stopped holding my breath for the AEM "race" EMS a long time ago. Here's my post from '02 back when I still bought into the AEM hype. http://forum.aempower.com/bbs/viewto...&postorder=asc
They are more interested in releasing application-specific versions of it that they apparently can properly support, than coming out with the universal version that so many people have been waiting for.

Don't get me wrong, I think an AEM EMS would be really nice. But I don't think it'll be available any time soon.

I'm not in too much of a rush for the rest of the parts, I have to let the paychecks build up again just to buy my turbo, and the Cunningham rod purchase would happen in the nearer term more because of the group discount opportunity than because I was particularly ready for the parts.

I wasn't aware that the crank needed to be balanced as a result of these mods. I thought the crank pulley/vibration dampener had something to do with that. If it needs to be balanced, do they take the whole moving assembly and balance it as a unit?

I try not to worry about the slippery slope thing too much. It's a project motor/car anyhow and as long as I can still get myself to work and back in another car I don't try to rush it. When I think about it tho', it is kinda scary to think that each portion of the project costs close to a grand. When I get the motor "finished", I might end up putting into a different car that's more worthy of it.

I just think about those people that have brand new cars and lose their wallets on depreciation, and how their cars have less character, and they have to make a car payment every single month no matter what. At least by having a few older Audi's, I can "usually" choose when to spend money on them.

As for the remap, I plan to either enlist Mihnea's or another programmers help or perhaps go with a standalone option, which is looking more appealing. I'm not trying to figure that out yet as I've got plenty to worry about. If I thought about the whole project too much, I might not do it at all!

[A1QSHIP]

Rod Update

HEY! Another MB tech messin with Audis. I can speak from personal experience that the rods in my 7A engine are "rifle drilled" and do pass oil around the con rod to spray the bottom side of the piston. This is in addition to the oil squrters.
I had the "opportunity" to "observe" this when I replaced the rods in my engine. The scenario started as a rattle in the top of the engine (broken valve spring) . I was told that this was the distributor gear and ordered a new distributor. While waiting for the new part, I had occasion to make a spirited drive down the Interstate. The low oil warning came on and there was a new noise in the engine. Turned out that the spring ate the top of the guide allowing a high rate of oil consumption. The convertor was hot enough to burn up all the oil the exhaust guide passed undetected. #3 rod bearing spun but did not hurt the crank. I found a motor from a breaker since the rods are a matched set unavailable seprately. Got a factory header in the bargan. Check Audifans posting, there was someone selling a set of Carillo rods there recently

I think you would definately benefit from lower cr pistons. The thing you want to think of is lead time. The rods will proabable take around 10 weeks, and the pistons around 9 weeks give or take on both. So, if you only want to save on time/labor, it would be best to order them at the same time, and not have to balance the crank twice. Then again, once you change the cr, and turbo, you will need to re-map the ecu or get a standalone system. By the time we get our engine goodies, aem is planning on relasing a true standalone generic ecu. Something i think we have all been waiting for. It truely is a slipery slope. I checked, and it says that i am allowed to recieve email from the list, but i will just post my address hans14914 (at) yahoo (dot) com
Hans

[auditude]

Check Audifans posting, there was someone selling a set of Carillo rods there recently

I think the posting has been removed. If I recall correctly, those were offered for like $1100. That probably isn't bad for those. These Cunninghams are $900 for a set without the rifle drilling.

I found the post in the list archives, which don't get deleted like the actual marketplace:

http://www.audifans.com/pipermail/marketplace/2004-July/002752.html

"I have for sale, one complete set of five (5) Carrrillo connecting rods for the 20vt motors. These are the infamous H-Beam design and are the standard 144mm length for 20v engine. They are 100% new , never run, and are sitting here at my house waiting to ship (no waiting for 3 months for Carrillo to make them) in the original box with all the original paperwork. As an added bonus the rods were ordered and made with the upgraded SPS-CARR bolts . Typically they are made the SPS-WMC6 bolt, but these were special ordered with the upgraded bolts at a cost of $30 per rod. These rods weigh in at 574 grams. If have ever looked into these rods, you know they are expensive. I am asking $1100 shipped, which is anywhere from $400 to $500 cheaper than anyone I could find. Plans have changed on the rods I am using and need to sell these now."

[mbcouple]

KY, thats not too far from me, Indy. As far as AEM race stuff, i taked to a tech on the phone last month about converting a honda ecu to a generic ecu, and he said that they planned on releasing the standalone at sema this year, and that is should be available before thanksgiving. They have been marketing the race ecu through GEMS http://www.gems.co.uk/ems/standard_aem15.html , so i think it is ready.
Hans

[auditude]

KY, thats not too far from me, Indy. As far as AEM race stuff, i taked to a tech on the phone last month about converting a honda ecu to a generic ecu, and he said that they planned on releasing the standalone at sema this year, and that is should be available before thanksgiving. They have been marketing the race ecu through GEMS http://www.gems.co.uk/ems/standard_aem15.html , so i think it is ready.
Hans

That's great!

[Jeffer]

On topic:

Stay away from Eurospec!

BTDT they are cr@p

[Doug_RS2]

If you are wanting to run lots of boost and advance you might want to consider going to 8.0:1 CR - Mihnea was trying to get me to do this - after I got my custom pistons to 8.7:1 I think if you are considering running over 400bhp then you pretty much don't care what off boost performance is like - I wish I had done that now - I might get a custom headgasket in the future to do this.

[mbcouple]

I am planning on running a very high octane fuel, so i dont think i need to drop down that low. I did consider it though. I have a manufacturing business, and i can get chemicals in bulk for good prices. I plan on buying toluene and ethanol by the 55gal drum, and playing with mixtures until i get it right.
Hans

[audiman]

Mine is awful off boost, has no get up and go what so ever. I have dropped my CR to an estimated 8.6-7:1. Doug if you do do something about custom headgaskets let me know

[auditude]

Mine is awful off boost, has no get up and go what so ever. I have dropped my CR to an estimated 8.6-7:1.

Ok, so what would the difference be if I went with 8.0:1 versus 8.5:1 c/r? It sounds like it's gonna be a dog off boost regardless. Is there any reason to go with 8.5:1 over 8.0:1?

Does anyone know what the Dahlback RSI Golf is running for c/r?

I know my old MC-1'ed 5kcstq (10vt, type 44 200 outside of the U.S.) had no low end before the turbo would spool. Then it was like someone finally stepped on the gas.

[audiman]

The reason for doing this is to try and eliminate pinging. Also means the ignition can be advanced more to give inreased power when on boost. True it does have low power off boost, but then thats why we have filthy great big turbos If you want a car for everyday driveability then you want a small turbo and stock CR. But if you want large power then you have to comprimise. Also depends on your driving style. I tend to rev mine to the redline all the time so lag and low end are not an issue for me.

[auditude]

The reason for doing this is to try and eliminate pinging. Also means the ignition can be advanced more to give inreased power when on boost. True it does have low power off boost, but then thats why we have filthy great big turbos If you want a car for everyday driveability then you want a small turbo and stock CR. But if you want large power then you have to comprimise. Also depends on your driving style. I tend to rev mine to the redline all the time so lag and low end are not an issue for me.

I understand in principle reducing static c/r to avoid pinging, but I'm wondering how big of a difference going from 8.5:1 to 8.0:1 would be. I guess it's just not enough of a reduction from 9.0-3:1? I think my goal would be to put most of a GT30R to use, probably on a stock displacement engine.

I have briefly driven a K26'ed 1983 urquattro, and those have pretty low compression, like 8.0:1 I think. It was laggy, but if there was enough power up top I think I could deal with it. I suppose with a front mounted throttle body and ball bearing turbo, some of the lag should be offset.

As far as pinging, we only get 91 octane here (whatever method we use, R+M/2 or something), at most places where I'd buy fuel, and I live in one of the hottest places during the summer. I do want to run a very large FMIC, which I is supposed to help. I also am not opposed to mixing up my own toluene/gasoline mix, altho' I wouldn't want to have to. The car will not be a daily driver as I have one or two other cars for that. I do tend to run my cars to redline when I drive, even the daily drivers.

Thanks,

Ken