3b motor to 500bhp posible? without any problems?

[magarv]

I've said it once I'll say it again, I do not believe ALL these power figures from accross the ocean.

Over 1000hp and the best it can manage is that time ?

Don't get me wrong that is VERY fast but strange how cars in this country with less power have run faster and on treads as I expect the Audi runs slicks as most drag cars do out there ?

It takes awesome skill and knowledge to build a reliable 600hp engine let alone one thats approaching 1000hp so I am not saying he doesn't know what he is doing, I just think the power figures are a bit optimistic.

Back on topic though, most engines can be reliable at 500hp if you use the right components, some say its ok to cut corners as its worked for them but to be what I would class as reliable you want some deep pockets.

Strange how high HP figures always is doubted and questioned Don not trust the HP numbers from Norway??? Is our dynos any different from yours?? Maybe it is something with the air up here?
The time is with threads, DOT marked, street legal Most cars in Norway run on slicks?? It can seems that the 1/4 mile time is poor. Keep in mind that it is in a manual car with a stock 5 speed transmision and the stock bushings from 1985 etc. Not in a proper dragracer

The engine(s) are built in Norway by Jonus and Tor Øyvind Skinne and dynoed in a proper calibrated dyno at VS Motor in Norway.
Mr Skinne have built dragracing engines, rallycross engines +++ for a life time. Skinne Bros team was and still is the only non-american Pro Stock team to qualify in the World Finals in the US. Tor Øyvind and Jonus have that awesome skill and knowledge as you refere to

E.g search youtube for "Skinne Turbo Beetle scc", that car does 8,6 now with a 850hp/1150Nm VW engine on "threads" (ET Street tires). The Beetle have a more correct setup for the strip. Still street legal with number plates.

And back to topic, I realy cant see how putting 500usd in a MSD Ignition box and coil is cutting corners Top Fuel engines with 7000hp runs distributors dont they??
It is just a matter of doing it correct, with the correct parts

And speaking of reliable, when you build a 1000hp IL 5 you will always compromise with reliability. My point of mentioning that particular engine was that it is working fine, and have done that for at least 3 years now with some racing every now and then.

10mm rotor arm is what it shows after having a look.

I also agree with Jamo that the standard 3B ignition system cannot support High hp applications reliably, and going with multiple coil packs is the best option But as magarv has shown it is possible to use the older dizzy drive technology and get good reliable power with a few tweeks to the 3b ignition system.

Of coarse the best way is to put in alot of work and money and used the latest technology. A distributor system demands more attention to always keep parts in good condition etc.

But I think it is wrong to say as Jamo did that the 3B dizzy DO NOT work over 500hp. I think there are reliable options and that was the point with my first answer.

[Benquattro]

maybe a complete list with the part numbers to do a 500hp+ 3B ignition upgrade would be handy
Though everything I need to know is in this topic.
Now I can get started, thanks

[Rocco]

maybe a complete list with the part numbers to do a 500hp+ 3B ignition upgrade would be handy
Though everything I need to know is in this topic.
Now I can get started, thanks

+1

[magarv]

maybe a complete list with the part numbers to do a 500hp+ 3B ignition upgrade would be handy
Though everything I need to know is in this topic.
Now I can get started, thanks

In my opinion the list is quite short.

1. Check that ignition parts is in good condition and that you have the correct rotor (Should be 1 234 332 414 alternativ 1 234 332 (-850)/(R1) if my notes are correct)
2. Remove the ignition amplifier and replace with this: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-6520/
3. Replace the coil with this one: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-8253/
4. By a decent set of sparkplugg wires, I use Magnecore kv-85(?)
5. Use a suitable sparkplug. I use Bosch F3CS, suitable for trackday/highway use, maybe not for "down-town" driving.

You can also use other ignition amplifiers/coils but this is the setup that have worked for me and some other cars I know...

[Benquattro]

great, this setup goes in my 220v

[S2central.net]

In my opinion the list is quite short.

1. Check that ignition parts is in good condition and that you have the correct rotor (Should be 1 234 332 414 alternativ 1 234 332 (-850)/(R1) if my notes are correct)
2. Remove the ignition amplifier and replace with this: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-6520/
3. Replace the coil with this one: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-8253/
4. By a decent set of sparkplugg wires, I use Magnecore kv-85(?)
5. Use a suitable sparkplug. I use Bosch F3CS, suitable for trackday/highway use, maybe not for "down-town" driving.

You can also use other ignition amplifiers/coils but this is the setup that have worked for me and some other cars I know...

F3CS - really - that cold ?

On paper I though the F4CS was a good one to test with for upgraded engines but a lot of tuners prefer to stick with F5PD0R... NOT saying you are wrong by the way, but you might be the 1st person to back up this theory with a preference for an alternative plug.

What sort of mileage do you get on F3CS (20k miles is easy for F5PDOR by comparison) and what spark gap out of interest ?

[EspenW]

F3CS is considered a racing plug, and thus quite cold for road use. The potential problem with using them on the road is that a cold plug will foul up with carbon deposits since it might not reach a self cleaning temperature on the road.
I run them with E85 (that burns much cleaner) Reason is that E85 has the same knock resistance as 116 octane race fuel, but its ability to resist pre ignition is lower than the race fuel. A colder plug is used to reduce the chance of preignition when cylinder pressures are raised to race fuel type levels. I'm at 2.1-2.2bar at the moment.

[S2central.net]

2.2bar in cold Norwegian air with E85 must be great fun !

[EspenW]

Yup, more than 600nm at the wheels in the freezing temps, but no traction.... salty slush on the road, so the RS2 stays in the garage.
I ran a test in -16degrees and got around 625nm at the wheels, but peak power was actually down compared to tests in more normal temps, likely due to massive losses to windage from oil (motor and tranny) at such low temps, this has the biggest effect at high rpms, but creates more resistance at peak torque rpm too, so the actual torque developed at the flywheel must have been quite high. Got some pretty decent in gear acceleration figures in those temps. 50-70mph in 3rd gear in 1.64s. Stock RS2 is around 3.0 and a 997 turbo is around 2.1s, so cold weather is nice.

[Rocco]

2.2bar in cold Norwegian air with E85 must be great fun !

yes yes

our cars was desinged for use them in the scandinavian lands and siberia

[Rocco]

In my opinion the list is quite short.

1. Check that ignition parts is in good condition and that you have the correct rotor (Should be 1 234 332 414 alternativ 1 234 332 (-850)/(R1) if my notes are correct)
2. Remove the ignition amplifier and replace with this: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-6520/
3. Replace the coil with this one: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-8253/
4. By a decent set of sparkplugg wires, I use Magnecore kv-85(?)
5. Use a suitable sparkplug. I use Bosch F3CS, suitable for trackday/highway use, maybe not for "down-town" driving.

You can also use other ignition amplifiers/coils but this is the setup that have worked for me and some other cars I know...

thank you very much for that info sure that there are a lot of more perfonmance parts for upgrade the 3B ignition but it is very helpfull the help for the experience from your car and your parts


I THINK THAT THIS THREAD MUST BE STICKED¡¡

[Sparxx]

Hi,

500 HP on a 3B is not a big deal.
forged rods, lathe machined pistons, upgraded ignition like my Scandinavian bro´s, 7a cams or NM cam, aj. cam pulley, SQ EM, K27 7 or RS2 EM with a prototype k26 10 on his limit, RS2 injectors, FPR, RS2 intercooler, RS2 air box, 70mm down pipe and 76mm exhaust, fuel pump 044 and a very good online motronic setup.
That´s it.

Spark plugs, we use F3CS on the street sometimes a F2CS on hot days. There is no problem anyway.

And 1000HP ....... quarter mile is one thing, we have more fun with 100 to 250 km/h or even 300.
Cars only build for drag can´t be use on tracks, but track cars on the strip OK, not that fast . ..........

[Jonnybravo]

Sparxx.

As I used the Norris Designs car as an example here are the official times it has achieved prior to the new more powerful engine and layout. Don't forget this car was very competitive in Time Attack but would still manage the below times when drag raced.

IMO a proper all rounder, not a one trick pony
Power: 927bhp & 739lb-ft (VP Import Race Fuel) Weight 1180Kg (Dry) Top speed: 215mph + (201.43mph so far ) Best 0-60mph = 2.4 sec Best 0-100mph = 4.3 sec Best 0-150mph = 8.00 sec ¼ mile in 9.26 sec @160.09mph on 17" Nitto 555R tyres. Best 30-130mph = 5.06 sec

Quite amazing what power the 3B and ABY can make with few mods though, be interesting to see how well they make the power though with no headwork etc..

[magarv]

IMO a proper all rounder, not a one trick pony
Power: 927bhp & 739lb-ft (VP Import Race Fuel) Weight 1180Kg (Dry) Top speed: 215mph + (201.43mph so far ) Best 0-60mph = 2.4 sec Best 0-100mph = 4.3 sec Best 0-150mph = 8.00 sec ¼ mile in 9.26 sec @160.09mph on 17" Nitto 555R tyres. Best 30-130mph = 5.06 sec

Quite amazing what power the 3B and ABY can make with few mods though, be interesting to see how well they make the power though with no headwork etc..

Funny You should mention the Norris Evo.

Jonus Green 90Q (with 1065hp and distributor ignition) 6 wins - Norris 0 wins the times they met at Gatebil Rudskogen...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd5_XgHpSQE

Norris always catces up at the end, because Jonus have to brake early before the righthander at the end of the straight. (Stock size brakes by the way) Still Jonus is 6 times first over the finnish line. Norris tried 2 years, change tires several times e.g. But Jonus was always first.

The 90q weighs at least 100kgs more than the Evo and still have the back seats in it. The Evo have trick dampers, sequential gearbox +++ Building cost 100.000+ GBP??
The Audi have stock gearbox, stock bushings, stock brakes+++

And you dont belive that it cant have 1065hp?? Just 0,3 seconds behind at 1/4mile with a building cost only 1/4 of the Evo and with a heavier car??

And dont get me wrong, the Evo is a realy great build and I absolutely love the car.
I just cant see have you can say that the Evos 927bhp is absolutely spot on and not "one trick pony" but doubt that the heavier and simple Audi can not have 1065hp??

[repo]

Well, I think someone did quite a few 9,2 runs with t89q on quarter equipped with original 01e tranny and 1360kg. Dynoing "only" 970hp.

Not hating anything, not claiming a thing, just (once again) pointing out, that there are too many variables to compare dyno figures if not done on same dyno, same day, same way.

So yes, I partly agree with Johnny.

Still, see no point why not to upgrade from dizzy to direct fire when aiming to 500hp, since the procedure and the parts are not that much more complicated than upgrading and updating the dizzy system.

Audi sport used dizzy at mid 80's, as there was no reasonable solution to go direct fire that time. Engine managements have evolved a fair bit since then. We need to remember they built the silliest I5's almost 25 years ago. How was Your PC running streaming video on 1985?