Just had to have my new engine that Aelred built rebuilt!!!

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  • epic
    S2Forum Extremist
    • Jun 2007
    • 1317
    • Country: England

    #1

    Just had to have my new engine that Aelred built rebuilt!!!

    Just had to have my new engine that Aelred rebuilt with new pistons and rebored.

    After running my new engine in for 1000 miles. It went to be mapped at MRC.
    I bought it from Alex aka S2Pearl last year which Aelred Smith had built for him. Engine spec hereThis is the engine I bought

    As soon as MRC put the engine on boost at lot of oil came out of the exhaust. The engine was inspected by an engineer and the bore clearance was found to be twice the recommended size. The honing marks are still clearly visible on the bores and the pistons show now wear.

    Here's the engineers report:

    Customer: MRC Tuning
    Product: S2 Inline 5 20v Engine
    Service: Engineers Report

    To whom it concerns,

    Overview

    Customer complained of smoking under load and idle along with heavy breathing from the engines breather system. Breather system is installed as recommended on a turbo engine featuring an inline baffled catch tank re-circulating into the intake pre turbo.
    Engine was delivered for transport convenience as a short block and cylinder head.

    Initial inspection

    Close inspection of the deck surfaces confirms no indication of blown head gasket. No oil shown in the intake ports of the cylinder head, a couple of the exhaust ports where slightly wet with oil. Exhaust guides are in as new condition with regards to side play, whereas intake guides appear to be slightly tight. Due to the method of transport whether the oil in the exhaust ports is down to failed oil stem seals or seepage from other areas during transit is currently inconclusive until further strip down.
    There is a visual score on bore number 5 (see attached pic) on the thrust side which can be felt by running your fingers across it, it is significant enough that one can catch their fingernail in it. Other than the score all honing marks on the bores as to be expected on a fresh engine so bore wear can be eliminated as a cause of the aforementioned symptoms.
    Back and forth piston movement in the bores are significantly more than to be expected from a low mileage engine, further confirmed not only by the visual gap between the bore and the crown when the crank is midstroke but also by the ability to physically being able to part twist the piston in the bore at TDC.
    There are small quantities of swarf present in the oil almost like bearing shavings found after bearing failure, the source of these is not apparent.

    Short Block

    Removal of rod and piston assembly number five shows heavy bearing wear on the outer edges of the big end bearings indicative of small end bearing wear from side to side movement of the rods (see attached pics) However further inspection shows that the small end bearings and wristpin are in as new condition with no signs of wear. There is also heavy scoring on big end bearing too however no damage on the crank journal or any of the mains, making it difficult to determine the source.
    Minimal marking on the side skirts of the piston indicate it has covered no more than the claimed running in mileage of 800-1200miles. So they can be assumed to measure near enough identical to the day they were fitted.
    Upon measuring of the JE piston side skirt as per manufacturers specifications it was found to measure 3.202” measured at 4-5degrees Celsius. Measuring the bore of cylinder number 5 it was found to measure 3.208” with less than + 0.0005” ovality measured at 4-5 degrees Celsius. Again a clear indication of neglible bore wear.
    Manufacturer’s specification stipulates a 0.003-4” bore clearance on their standard range of pistons using the mathematical formulae on their instructions. Also according to JE literature the higher silicone content of the narrow side skirt pistons allows tighter wall clearances to be run where required to prevent piston instability issues from the narrow skirts.
    Looking at the bore clearance measured of 0.006”, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that bore number 5 was bored to the bore size printed on the box/documents of 81.50mm (3.2086”) instead of measuring the piston and calculating clearance as per installation instructions.
    This subsequently results in poor piston ring sealing due to the sideways instability of the piston within the bore during the duration of it’s stroke, visually confirmed by the unnatural big end bearing wear on the outer edges.
    Looking at the piston ring design the type fitted are total seal rings with the top ring being the total seal ring. These are normally recommended for mild to moderate boost application; whereas a total seal second ring is more suited to a high boost application. As the engine was on a low boost running in map this can be eliminated as being the cause of any of the aforementioned issues.
    Closer inspection of the top total seal ring led to the discovery that it’s total seal function is null and void as the total seal gaps where in perfect alignment instead of opposing as this is what creates the total seal.
    Removal of the top ring and installation into the bore to check ring gaps showed irregular gapping going from narrow to wide which can only be done to poor workmanship/tooling for the application.
    Subsequently piston and rod assembly number 4 was removed to find identical measurements/findings to that of number 5; Confirming that the faults found are down to incorrect machining/assembly instead of faulty product/components.
    Pistons 1, 2 and 3 suffered from the same measurement flaws however the total seal rings where found to be correctly orientated. This possibly indicates that the rings in 4 and 5 may have spun round due to the excessive bore clearance. However this theory will have to remain inconclusive as no previous experience has been had of such a fault.

    Cylinderhead

    Lifters and cams all show good condition as does the rest of the valve train. Guides have been freshly fitted and show good valve stem to guide clearance at full lift on the exhaust. Intake guides feel slightly tight.
    Strip down of the head confirms tight intake guides from mild scoring on the stems. Fortunately the low mileage has meant no long term wear implications. (see attached pics). Stemseals are all in good condition.
    The seat face on the valves themselves show indication of poor refacing equipment/coupled with poor lapping in of the valves. The burn flashes shown on all valves indicate either a poor grinding wheel or worn thrust bearings on the valve refacer causing skipping marks on the surface (see attached pics) something that can be easily overcome by correctly lapping the valves in, so one can only assume that this process was never carried out correctly. Lastly the general burnt deposits around the combustion chamber are that of high concentrations of burnt oil again showing an issue with rings (see attached pics)

    Conclusion

    The nature of the heavy breathing/smoking of the inline 5 engine supplied can only be assigned to incorrect machining/assembly of components into the short block, not by wear and tear. As confirmed by the aforementioned findings. Although the head showed signs of poor workmanship the faults found within the cylinder head would not have contributed to smoking. The swarf that was found within the oil can not be attributed to any of the findings, due to it’s minimal quantity 3 small flat slithers it can only be assumed to be from a previous bearing failure prior to the engines current life, present purely due to poor cleaning of the engine prior to re assembly.

    Legal Statement

    All measurements and related findings in the above report are factual and correct to the best of my knowledge/ability. All conclusions from the findings are made without prejudice, nor do I hold any financial interest in the outcome from this report.

    Sincerely,

    Jean-Paul Schoonbrood
    JNL Racing
    VAG engine specialist to the trade
    Last edited by epic; 18 January 2010, 14:15.
  • driftin jo
    S2Forum Fiend
    • Sep 2007
    • 2222
    • Country: United Kingdom

    #2
    I have seen this before , the machine shop just making the bore the nominal size of the piston ,sometimes you will get away with it as the pistons will be close enough to that size but it is NOT the way it is supposed to be done. The pistons should be labelled 1-5 measured for actual size, the bore size calculated (in this case 0.003 + of piston size ) then the bores marked on the block with a marker to what size they need to be made.
    The last few engines I have had bored for new pistons I have made the calculations, marked the sizes on the block and taken it to be machined so that there is no mistake with sizing.
    I do this always now as in the past I have found that the guy at the shop had just measured one piston for ref size and then made all the bores the same , wile this is not as bad as making the bore to the nominal size this is still not the way it should be done.

    Comment

    • GazzaG60
      S2Forum Freak
      • Mar 2007
      • 4133
      • Country: United Kingdom

      #3
      surely best to measure again before assembly especially if the engine is having proper parts with proper cost to it.

      Comment

      • geryS2
        S2Forum Maniac
        • May 2006
        • 814
        • Home: Belgium Current: Portugal

        #4
        no pics ?
        S2 's and oldtimers

        Comment

        • Fat Audi 80
          Super Moderator
          • Jan 2004
          • 10547
          • Country: England

          #5
          Epic,

          Could I suggest you clarify your intentions or edit your original post please? If this is something to be aired in public then a little more insight might help, rather than letting every man and his dog jump to their own conclusions?

          Thanks,

          Steve.
          The Perfectionist
          sigpic
          Audi Class Concours winner Stoner Park 2014, ADI Concours D'Elegance Class Winner 2008, Runner up 2014. Winner, S2Forum Show'n'Shine Billing 2006 & 2008.

          Comment

          • Rusty
            Super Moderator
            • Jun 2004
            • 18953
            • Country: United Kingdom

            #6
            I'm with fatty here. First of all it's a secondhand engine and so there is no way of knowing exactly what has happened in the interim time period between the work being carried out and the engine coming into your possesion, you are accusing Aelred directly of poor workmanship when he did the work some time ago and did not do the work directly for you. Secondly, if he has not already been given the opportunity then Aelred should have been contacted and allowed to discuss the issues and any remedial work with you in a private manner rather than start shouting on the forum in bold print and replying to age old threads with abusive comments. May I suggest that you attempt to resolve this issue privately first, as it should be.
            Cheers'en, AndyC
            1994 ABY Coupe - Projekt Alpinweiss

            Comment

            • epic
              S2Forum Extremist
              • Jun 2007
              • 1317
              • Country: England

              #7
              The engine was unused when it came to me.

              Aelred has been contacted about this and has been no help at all.

              Attempts have certainly already been made to deal with this in a private manner.

              Comment

              • S2central.net
                Retired OG Mod
                • Jul 2003
                • 16590
                • Country: Northern Ireland

                #8
                I'd like to see this one resolved offline as well... been pondering a while on this as I don't know the history of course. It would seem that some time and other hands have been involved since Aelred allegedly done the work (or contracted it out) and a fault was discovered so it doen't seem fair to beat up Aelred for poor service. I suggest that a one-one conversation needs to take place in private between Epic & Aelred to ascertain all of the facts and agree a course of corrective action.
                Paul Nugent
                Webmaster http://S2central.net
                Administrator http://S2forum.com

                1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

                Comment

                • S2central.net
                  Retired OG Mod
                  • Jul 2003
                  • 16590
                  • Country: Northern Ireland

                  #9
                  D'oh - I started my post #8 before #7 was posted so thats a bit out of sync... It does seem that attempts have been made to discuss - so what is the point of the thread ?
                  Paul Nugent
                  Webmaster http://S2central.net
                  Administrator http://S2forum.com

                  1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                  2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                  2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                  Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                  There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

                  Comment

                  • epic
                    S2Forum Extremist
                    • Jun 2007
                    • 1317
                    • Country: England

                    #10
                    Aelred was contacted in the first week of December about this.

                    He offered no assistance in resolving the issues and Doug at MRC sent the engine to have a full engineers report done.

                    The engineers report was sent to Aelred as soon as it was available.

                    When I have tried to talk to him on the phone he doesn't answer my call.

                    I was keen to resolve this away from the Forum.

                    The unused engine was installed into my car by Doug at MRC at no time were the pistons removed from the block.

                    One of the main reasons I bought this engine was because of Aelred apparent reputation on this Forum. I was actually have a discussion with him about rebuilding my own engine and he put me in touch with Alex S2Pearl. This was before Alex had even listed it for sale here.

                    Comment

                    • GazzaG60
                      S2Forum Freak
                      • Mar 2007
                      • 4133
                      • Country: United Kingdom

                      #11
                      its pretty easy to pick out the point.

                      epic has bought an engine thats a dud for whatever reason and he is fooked off. the engine has been proven bad and an age old issue of not machining the block properly has occured. seen this many a time.

                      im not here to point the finger at all.

                      one thing that springs to mind is why did you not hear bad sounds during running in and report to builder if a piston had too much clearence to fill the bore properly. surely it would have sounded slappy.

                      Comment

                      • epic
                        S2Forum Extremist
                        • Jun 2007
                        • 1317
                        • Country: England

                        #12
                        The point of this thread is to make people aware of the issues that I have had with the engine. I thought the point of the Forum is to discuss our cars and any issues we have with them

                        Originally posted by S2central.net
                        D'oh - I started my post #8 before #7 was posted so thats a bit out of sync... It does seem that attempts have been made to discuss - so what is the point of the thread ?

                        Comment

                        • epic
                          S2Forum Extremist
                          • Jun 2007
                          • 1317
                          • Country: England

                          #13
                          the engine sounded just fine during run in and no issues where noticeable until MRC put boost though the engine when they started to map it.

                          Originally posted by GazzaG60
                          one thing that springs to mind is why did you not hear bad sounds during running in and report to builder if a piston had too much clearence to fill the bore properly. surely it would have sounded slappy.

                          Comment

                          • GazzaG60
                            S2Forum Freak
                            • Mar 2007
                            • 4133
                            • Country: United Kingdom

                            #14
                            i know there are lots of debates on running in...

                            did you do 1k with no boost?

                            how did you load up the rings during run-in?

                            not many things that we will say now can help you much im afraid.

                            ive heard subaru's that slap a fair bit when cold and the expansion of the piston helps lots. suppose there are lots of noises that dont help us picking odd ones out.

                            one thing to note is most motorsport parts ie rods, pistons have no warrany with them due to the use the are destined for. this doesn't help as it breaks the warranty chain to part manufacturer so to speak.

                            my last 2p for now is that i feel its best to do, if you have room and some tools, to do these things yourself. i know people who say dont eat a pie you aint made yourself as lids hide alsorts. same goes with engines. i bought a 16v once with a knackerd piston/bore/ring. good job i only wanted the head as i didn't know. getting it bored aint difficult neither is building. you need really 2 torque wrenches or one that covers wide range

                            if you build it yourself you can only blame yourself.

                            Comment

                            • epic
                              S2Forum Extremist
                              • Jun 2007
                              • 1317
                              • Country: England

                              #15
                              I followed the guidelines of Doug at MRC with regard to the running in.

                              The whole run in distance was done with the N75 disconnected.

                              Comment

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