Audi RS2 Turbo whine/failure

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  • prj
    S2Forum Zealot
    • Mar 2010
    • 6308
    • Country: Estonia

    #31


    Let's put it that way. Unless you completely cut off the oil supply to the turbo, there is basically nothing you can do to make this turbo fail this quickly.

    Does not matter if you had boost leaks (on standard tune you get fuel cut), kinked hose (only mechanical boost) or some other issues.
    As long as the oiling to the turbo is fine, it will be fine.
    http://tuner.ee - http://www.facebook.com/tuner.ee

    Comment

    • veneto rs2
      S2Forum Extremist
      • Jun 2006
      • 1022
      • Country: Veneto

      #32
      Originally posted by prj


      Let's put it that way. Unless you completely cut off the oil supply to the turbo, there is basically nothing you can do to make this turbo fail this quickly.

      Does not matter if you had boost leaks (on standard tune you get fuel cut), kinked hose (only mechanical boost) or some other issues.
      As long as the oiling to the turbo is fine, it will be fine.
      http://www.audisportclub.com/

      http://www.s2forum.com/forum/vbgoogl...227295&zoom=16

      Comment

      • Golfboy666GTI
        S2Forum Maniac
        • Sep 2008
        • 571
        • Country: New Zealand

        #33
        First of all Id like to thank everyone so far who has given me advice. I am very grateful.
        I love these cars but Im not the most mechanically minded person in the world.

        The turbo has been pulled apart and the guy who rebuilt the turbo tells me that the bearings are fine. The bits that are meant to be damaged are both Turbine Wheel and the Shaft, plus this part:



        Here it is sitting in bits on the bench:

        1980 VW Golf GTI Track Car
        1995 Audi RS2

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        • prj
          S2Forum Zealot
          • Mar 2010
          • 6308
          • Country: Estonia

          #34
          If there is no oil starvation marks visible on the shaft = your guy screwed up the rebuild.

          Was the turbo balanced after the rebuild?
          http://tuner.ee - http://www.facebook.com/tuner.ee

          Comment

          • Golfboy666GTI
            S2Forum Maniac
            • Sep 2008
            • 571
            • Country: New Zealand

            #35
            Originally posted by prj
            If there is no oil starvation marks visible on the shaft = your guy screwed up the rebuild.

            Was the turbo balanced after the rebuild?
            I dont know sorry. I guess hes not going to tell me either.
            1980 VW Golf GTI Track Car
            1995 Audi RS2

            Comment

            • veneto rs2
              S2Forum Extremist
              • Jun 2006
              • 1022
              • Country: Veneto

              #36
              My two cents....

              Even if the turbo it's destroyed....
              The picture speaks volume.....That's NOT the enviroment to work on such parts

              Stefano
              http://www.audisportclub.com/

              http://www.s2forum.com/forum/vbgoogl...227295&zoom=16

              Comment

              • AndyP
                S2Forum Zealot
                • Feb 2004
                • 6049
                • Country: England

                #37
                Originally posted by Golfboy666GTI
                I dont know sorry. I guess hes not going to tell me either.
                It's a fundamental part of rebuilding a turbo, anything that spins at 100,000rpm needs to be balanced. It's not the sort of kit that every garage has, only a turbo specialist, which from looking at the state of the workshop, this guy isn't.
                sigpic
                1991 Audi S2 3B - 2.5 Stroker engine
                1997 A6 2.5TDi quattro avant - C4
                1976 RD250E / 350LC cafe racer

                Comment

                • stocious
                  S2Forum Maniac
                  • Jul 2012
                  • 838
                  • Country: Ireland

                  #38
                  What you showed originally in your first pic, is a damaged compressor wheel, the turbine wheel is the exhaust side,

                  Which is the one still attached to the shaft in the last picture you posted,

                  If he's mixing up the names of things, and or making wild excuses, I feel sorry for you.

                  I don't think it was balanced, correct me if I'm wrong, but where are the witness marks of balancing,

                  He could of just tip ex everything on diss assembley

                  One would also thing that damaged shaft would lead to damaged bearings no?

                  Ask him where it's physically balanced for a start
                  1991 S2 3B Coupe, KW v1, solid sub frames, poly bushed, chipped, about 260 ish

                  Comment

                  • stocious
                    S2Forum Maniac
                    • Jul 2012
                    • 838
                    • Country: Ireland

                    #39
                    On another note? The exploded diagram that URS4BOY posted shows a 270 deg thrust bearing, yours in the photo is a 360 deg bearing, did you ask for that ?

                    Possibility of wrong kit ?

                    And he must have done loads or rs2 turbos before considering they way he's layed out the pieces!

                    Must be second nature to him by this stage,
                    1991 S2 3B Coupe, KW v1, solid sub frames, poly bushed, chipped, about 260 ish

                    Comment

                    • UrS4boy
                      S2Forum Obsessed
                      • Feb 2006
                      • 11859
                      • Country: Canada

                      #40
                      Originally posted by stocious
                      On another note? The exploded diagram that URS4BOY posted shows a 270 deg thrust bearing, yours in the photo is a 360 deg bearing, did you ask for that ? Possibility of wrong kit ?
                      As far as I know, there is a proper 360 degree bearing that works in these KKK turbos and comes in the new rebuild kits.

                      Check out page 23/28 and 24/28 in this pdf:
                      Last edited by UrS4boy; 2 July 2013, 15:18.
                      RS2'd 93 UrS4 5 spd sedan
                      94 UrS4 V8 6 spd manual avant

                      Comment

                      • stocious
                        S2Forum Maniac
                        • Jul 2012
                        • 838
                        • Country: Ireland

                        #41
                        Originally posted by UrS4boy
                        As far as I know, there is a proper 360 degree bearing that works in these KKK turbos and comes in the new rebuild kits.

                        Check out page 23/28 and 24/28 in this pdf:
                        http://12v.org/urs/RS2%20Turbo%20Dis...y%20twoqu.pdf:
                        Worth a mention just in case, cheers for the link I'll have a read.
                        1991 S2 3B Coupe, KW v1, solid sub frames, poly bushed, chipped, about 260 ish

                        Comment

                        • K Simmonds
                          S2Forum Zealot
                          • Dec 2007
                          • 7627
                          • Country: Wales

                          #42
                          The part you didn't know the name of in one of the above posts is the compressor back plate which along with some other components is unique to the K24 7200 and not cheap to replace, I know cause I had to buy one.

                          And yes as has been said by several other members one really has to try and make a KKK journal bearing turbo of this type fail. The K26 hybrid on my Nothelle converted car was still working OK with no water cooling whatsoever, the return hose was blocked solid and looked to have been that way for a very long time. It did need a rebuild but had covered over 80K miles running 300 BHP.

                          Hope you get this sorted to your satisfaction though it may easier to source a new turbo than fix your existing one..
                          1990 B3 2.0 80 quattro.
                          1992 C4 2.8 Avant quattro
                          1994 MTM RS2.
                          1998 B5 TDI quattro Sport.
                          2000 B5 TQS.

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                          • Golfboy666GTI
                            S2Forum Maniac
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 571
                            • Country: New Zealand

                            #43
                            Originally posted by UrS4boy
                            If the MAP sensor doesn't get a boost signal, the ECU doesn't control the N75 WGFV and all you get is the mechanical boost from the WG spring, i.e. about 0.6 Bar. They are looking for excuses but that isn't it. They Fk'd up the rebuild. Done. Period.

                            References:

                            Moisture Trap info:
                            The Audi Enthusiast website. Forums for all Audis including A4, S4, A5, S5, A6, S6, allroad, A8, S8, TT, R8, Q5, Q7, 4000, 100, 200, v6, v8, vintage, local forums


                            MAP Sensor info:
                            The Audi Enthusiast website. Forums for all Audis including A4, S4, A5, S5, A6, S6, allroad, A8, S8, TT, R8, Q5, Q7, 4000, 100, 200, v6, v8, vintage, local forums


                            WGFV info:
                            http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4s6/msgs/20987.phtml
                            Out of interest, what happens if the MAP gets say 25% of its boost signal?
                            For example, if my vac line isnt fully kinked back on itself.
                            1980 VW Golf GTI Track Car
                            1995 Audi RS2

                            Comment

                            • prj
                              S2Forum Zealot
                              • Mar 2010
                              • 6308
                              • Country: Estonia

                              #44
                              ECU goes to limp mode and you get spring boost.
                              Also, it's really really unlikely it gets a percentage. It's either kinked or it isn't.

                              Did you miss the fact that we told you, that nothing short of cutting off the oil supply to the turbo or sticking a physical object into the blades will make this turbo fail?
                              Apart from a shoddy rebuild of course.
                              http://tuner.ee - http://www.facebook.com/tuner.ee

                              Comment

                              • UrS4boy
                                S2Forum Obsessed
                                • Feb 2006
                                • 11859
                                • Country: Canada

                                #45
                                Originally posted by prj
                                ECU goes to limp mode and you get spring boost. Also, it's really really unlikely it gets a percentage. It's either kinked or it isn't.
                                I am just responding to think this through (please bear with me).

                                1. If the green plastic boost signal hose is disconnected from the ECU MAP sensor anywhere between the intake manifold and the ECU, then, yes, the ECU does not know what is going on boost-wise so it does NOT control the N75 WGFV and all you get is the WG spring-based boost, e.g. 0.6 Bar boost. This I know for 100%.

                                2. The MAP sensor is not based on air flow per se but pressure. That said, air is a compressible fluid so it might take a bit of air flow to translate the boost at the intake manifold to boost at the MAP sensor transducer (the thing that varies the electrical signal based on the boost pressure).

                                3. A completely kinked green plastic boost signal hose will not transfer boost from the intake manifold to the MAP sensor in the ECU. No feed back = the ECU is likely to go into a limp mode and not control the N75 WGFV = we're back to spring pressure boost (0.6 Bar).

                                4. A partially kinked green plastic boost signal hose will transfer boost from the intake manifold to the MAP sensor but the volume of air being used to "bend" the MAP sensor transducer might not be enough or quick enough. The ECU would get some feed back but it would be delayed. The ECU would control the N75 WGFV but the delay might be enough to cause the ECU to ask the WGFV for more boost than is actually needed (or was needed a few milliseconds ago). But that should not translate into uncontrollable WG operation and over spinning the turbo. Furthermore, I thought Nik said his boost gauge read 17 psig or 21 psig or something well short of 29 psi (2 Bar) that would start to indicate that the turbo is being over spun by the ECU via the WGFV.

                                5. If I remember correctly there *is* an issue with the WGFV and the hose to the lower chamber:

                                Here is what our Marc S (of EFI Express fame) says about the WGFV and the connection of the long leg of the WGFV to the turbo inlet hose from the MAF:

                                "Under normal operation, air goes from the boost source to the outlet (wastegate). Thats a safety feature. If the valve is busted, it still opens the wastegate."

                                I know in the past, Marc has raised the red flag that you need to keep the WGFV connected to the wastegate, even if it broken because without it, there is no connection between the turbo and the wastegate to open the wastegate against the wastegate spring pressure. Under that scenario, the wastegate will not open and boost pressures will rise to (likely) destructive levels.
                                RS2'd 93 UrS4 5 spd sedan
                                94 UrS4 V8 6 spd manual avant

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