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AAN in T3 Syncro 16 - misfire above 10psi boost

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  • #91
    Comments and how to open the Motronic ECU

    A 044 Bosch Motorsports fuel pump it good for well over 400 hp if not 500 hp. The stock ABY and AAN fuel pumps are more than adequate for 280 hp.

    Stock turbo (K24-7000) and AAN/ABY injectors are fine for 280 hp.

    Your external 3 Bar MAP sensor situation seems a bit unnecessarily dodgy. There are good internal 3 Bar alternatives

    EFI Express: http://www.efiexpress.com/catalog/pr...products_id=82

    http://www.efiexpress.com/catalog/images/freescale1.JPG

    Opening the Motronic ECU: http://12v.org/urs/Bob%20Myers%20ECU...structions.pdf

    Open it up and take and post photos of the two chips (remember to Macro focus)

    RS2'd 93 UrS4 5 spd sedan
    94 UrS4 V8 6 spd manual avant

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    • #92
      Again being brutal, if the map sensor is a lash up then its likely the chips are as well!
      They are a few guides on ecu opening. There is a bit of a technique. The trickiest bit being where you need to spread the clips either side, toothpicks are useful, and then push down on the top board and push back. I'll find the guides shortly.
      I can still put the manual immo equivelent SW on those chips if you want to still keep the immo. The logic for that we have already discussed. In fact if I knew that the boost chips for C/D were the same I could send you the ign/fuel chip on a similar (not identical!) chip to try. I would prefer to read the original and compare to ensure there was no difference as we are trying to get a baseline. Anyway without the ecu being socketed we can't make progress!
      That leaves the modified ecu. Once we have one suitable albeit stock ecu, we can investigate that.

      Comment


      • #93
        AHAH I have it

        I knew at some point I'd taken photos of the inside of the chipped ECU (my memory is rubbish as I can't remember how to get it apart now )

        Anyway... here are the pics.











        Any ideas?

        MG

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        • #94
          Yep! Its a Cosworth Map sensor. Been here before methinks!
          The chips do not appear to be the OE ones which are usually Texas Instruments in my experience. Having said that as long as they are the correct type and access speed then they would work. As said previously, any reputable tuner would stick labels over the eprom window. Draw your own conclusions from that comment.
          The only option is to read them and see if there is a clue somewhere.

          Looking at the boost chip its access speed is slower than the OE (250ns vs 200ns). Whether in the real world this matters much I am uncertain. I have been advised that its acceptable to have faster access times but not slower.
          Last edited by twoqu; 9 March 2016, 22:11.

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          • #95
            Definitely NOT real MTM chips. No labels. No daughter board under the fuel/timing chip on the top board.

            RS2'd 93 UrS4 5 spd sedan
            94 UrS4 V8 6 spd manual avant

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            • #96
              When you connect VCDS/Vag com does anything show in the ecu fields when it detects the ecu? Often modded sw shows the vendors ID over the OE p/n's.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by twoqu View Post
                When you connect VCDS/Vag com does anything show in the ecu fields when it detects the ecu? Often modded sw shows the vendors ID over the OE p/n's.
                Yup... looks like an ABY part number. No idea how that works.



                MG

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                • #98
                  Its a possibility that you have standard ABY SW (2.5bar) in an ecu equipped with a 3 bar map sensor. As we have discussed, the only versions using most stock components and a 3 bar map sensor would have been based on AAN SW.
                  The only way to be certain is to read and compare the chips. Basically its what we have been saying all along, you don't know what you have and its potentailly engine damaging.
                  Get that other ecu socketted asap.
                  If I was confident that SW was stock ABY another option would be to source the equivelent map sensor in a 2.5bar version if such a thing exists. You could then just subsitute the map sensor and it would be close to but not necessarily exactly the same as stock. Not ideal but expedient.
                  Without reading the chips and at least comparing them with known stock ones its all a bit of a gamble really.
                  Last edited by twoqu; 9 March 2016, 23:15.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by twoqu View Post
                    Its a possibility that you have standard ABY SW (2.5bar) in an ecu equipped with a 3 bar map sensor. As we have discussed, the only versions using most stock components and a 3 bar map sensor would have been based on AAN SW.
                    Robin: Not exactly clear what you are trying to say here. The stock AAN ECU, like the stock ABY ECU, a 250 kPa (2.5 Bar) MAP sensor. Only the ADU ECU had a 300 kPa MAP sensor stock.

                    There is software out there for the ABY and AAN that uses the stock 2.5 Bar MAP sensor to make about 260 hp. This is sometimes called Stage 1 software. To go higher and towards the safe limits of the stock AAN/ABY fuel injectors, you need to change the 2.5 Bar MAP to a 3.0 Bar MAP sensor and have the appropriate software, sometimes called Stage 1+ software.

                    Not that you didn't know this. I just wanted everyone to be clear. The OP needs to poke those chips a bit more and find out who burned them.
                    RS2'd 93 UrS4 5 spd sedan
                    94 UrS4 V8 6 spd manual avant

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by twoqu View Post
                      Other than repeating what has already been said, you need to determine what you have got.
                      If the stock ecu is available I suggest you open it up and see whether its socketed. If it is not, then socket it. That way we can get a manual SW, either ABY or AAN into it. That gives us the ability to see whether the vehicle performs as stock. If it doesen't then the issue is with the installation. If you send me the stock chips I will erase and reprogamme them with a stock manual config. Effectively that will make the ecu a manual variant not an auto variant and rule out any SW conflict.
                      Actually I was wondering how you are a running a immo ecu (551D). Have you transplanted all the necessary immo stuff as well, the key barrel, immo box etc, or got round it some other way? If not, then that ecu must have other SW as it should not work in an umimmo vehicle.
                      I would also look at the inside of the modified ecu. IF it was an MTM ecu then it would have a proper 3 Bar Bosch Map sensor and the fuel/ign chip (top board) would have an encyption board on it. There may be others but MTM did as Dave has shown for the AAN only, use the 3 Bar map on the first stage, which most other conversions did not. This would have added to the cost. It did not increase power at the top end so it was to fatten up the mid range torque. Presumably they needed to get over 1.5 Bar to do this.
                      Most of the conversions exploited the full potential of the standard components to minimise expense so are nearly always in the 270-280 BHP range. Anything above that would need expensive additional components, turbos, injectors, map sensors, manifolds etc, with the SW calibrated to match. So unless you know for certain what SW you have and for what components, you will be chasing the solution. Guess it depends on how much time and money you want to spend doing this.
                      Pics are always good as sometimes we can spot things.
                      Thank you for the offer of wiping and reprogramming the ECU chips.

                      I'll try to find some sockets and get the ECU chips to you.

                      You have a PM regarding where to send them etc.

                      Thanks again

                      MG

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                      • Not sure whether you ever did a boost leak test. This AM on my home forum, a poster (Marvin H.) said "My boost held up to ten then fell flat." and then he posted this:

                        RS2'd 93 UrS4 5 spd sedan
                        94 UrS4 V8 6 spd manual avant

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                        • Moving on from the above, I've bought some 440cc injectors from another S2 member. I'll be looking for an RS2 FPR and then thinking about RS2 EM, Turbo and downpipe.

                          Re -downpipe, my setup is currently an ANN downpipe upper section, only a short amount before it goes into a 2 1/2" splitter and each leg runs to it's own chambered (short) silencer.







                          Knowing that the RS2 downpipe is 70mm (is that id or od?) and that the AAN is 63mm id, with it being such a short run of 63mm, am I really going to see a big improvement if I use a K24/7200?

                          Oh... for those wondering, I am going to have it tuned properly but I don't see the point until I've stopped swapping parts.

                          MG
                          Last edited by RS2; 24 August 2016, 23:41.

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                          • Can anyone give me anymore detail on the downpipe restrictions please?

                            MG

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                            • I'm not sure it will make such a difference on a short run. Below 400hp I would expect it would be an issue
                              Greg

                              S2Forum.com Administrator & Webmaster

                              '93 Coupe with a few tweeks

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                              • Originally posted by Greg_S View Post
                                I'm not sure it will make such a difference on a short run. Below 400hp I would expect it would be an issue
                                It 'would't be an issue or 'wouldn't' be an issue below 400bhp?

                                If it doesn't make that much difference below 400bhp, I'm happy with it. I don't intend on going over 300bhp. The gearbox is struggling to cope as it is

                                MG

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