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  • Simulated Narrowband into motronic

    Another question: Can I use the simulated NB signal from a Zeitronix WB controller to feed the Motronic? Instead of stock NB?
    '96 UrS6 auto PRJ chipped E85
    '95 80Q AEB VEMS E85

  • #2
    Originally posted by ChrisAudi80
    Another question: Can I use the simulated NB signal from a Zeitronix WB controller to feed the Motronic? Instead of stock NB?
    Yes

    S2 Coupe 3B Project


    Ur quattro restoration

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    • #3
      Originally posted by filip.krticka View Post
      Thanks prj for big contribution and knowladge share to the community

      Could anybody share the RS2+ map based on the prj research please? Do not want to reinvent the wheel. Thanks a lot. I do not actually car if it is for gasoline or E85.
      i would say the purpose of PRJmod is to create your own tuning. if you are not capable of doing it im sure that PRJ will provide you with the tuning your after for a fee.


      Originally posted by ChrisAudi80 View Post
      Another question: Can I use the simulated NB signal from a Zeitronix WB controller to feed the Motronic? Instead of stock NB?
      Yes it is possible to feed the 0-5V signal directly from any wideband controller into the motronic on one of the analog inputs. i am working on a solution for this but will use the MFTS pin 46 for now so if wideband input is needed map switching or the boost cut patches should not be enabled.


      I also had another idea about creating a patch to run 1.8T IAT sensor over the OEM one. OEM one is a little harder to find in the USA and 1.8T ones are everywhere. what made me realize this is i took the stock IAT sensor out of my car and installed a 1.8T one with the VEMS and i just realized that it was in there still because of the high readings the logging is showing. also i have no idea where i put my original sensor and dont want to track down or buy another one lol. by the looks of it the 1.8T sensors scale is exactly opposite to the original sensor.
      Last edited by vwnut8392; 1st January 2018, 01:14.
      "The really good drivers got the bugs on the side windows." Walter Röhrl

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      • #4
        Originally posted by vwnut8392 View Post

        i would say the purpose of PRJmod is to create your own tuning. if you are not capable of doing it im sure that PRJ will provide you with the tuning your after for a fee.



        Yes it is possible to feed the 0-5V signal directly from any wideband controller into the motronic on one of the analog inputs. i am working on a solution for this but will use the MFTS pin 46 for now so if wideband input is needed map switching or the boost cut patches should not be enabled.


        I also had another idea about creating a patch to run 1.8T IAT sensor over the OEM one. OEM one is a little harder to find in the USA and 1.8T ones are everywhere. what made me realize this is i took the stock IAT sensor out of my car and installed a 1.8T one with the VEMS and i just realized that it was in there still because of the high readings the logging is showing. also i have no idea where i put my original sensor and dont want to track down or buy another one lol. by the looks of it the 1.8T sensors scale is exactly opposite to the original sensor.
        I meant just inputting the simulated NB (0-1v) to the signal in pin on stock ECU.

        Stock AAN and 1.8T IAT sensor are both NTC IIRC. However, the 1.8 is supposed to have better resolution and response.
        '96 UrS6 auto PRJ chipped E85
        '95 80Q AEB VEMS E85

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        • #5
          The 2.2T sensor is PTC. The resolution/response is not any better, this is a misguided assumption by the people running VEMS as VEMS lacks the hardware to correctly read the PTC sensor.
          Also, all the sensors have calibration curves in the ECU, nothing to do other than change a map.
          http://tuner.ee - http://www.facebook.com/tuner.ee

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          • #6
            Originally posted by prj View Post
            The 2.2T sensor is PTC. The resolution/response is not any better, this is a misguided assumption by the people running VEMS as VEMS lacks the hardware to correctly read the PTC sensor.
            Also, all the sensors have calibration curves in the ECU, nothing to do other than change a map.
            i had problems with making the stock sensor scale properly in VEMS, well i wouldnt say i had problems its more like my patience with making it work ran out and i tossed in the 1.8T sensor and it worked perfectly lol. knowing there's a calibration curve in the ECU is good. so essentially a patch could be added to the XDF to quickly switch the curve to the 1.8T sensor and back again to the 2.2 sensor. from what i remember in my research for setting up VEMS on my car is that the 1.8T sensor is NTC and the 2.2 sensor is PTC. basically the axis's are opposite like where the 1.8T sensor would read 0 the 2.2 sensor would read 255 and vice versa for example. one thing i noticed is in the stock motronic with the 1.8T sensor is that the temp stays at 38.8 degrees C all the time. i plug the VEMS back in to make sure its functioning right and the VEMS shows it functioning as normal which it is with the 1.8T sensor so the 1.8T sensor must put the scale near max in the ECU. actual temp of the intake manifold at the sensor was around 10deg C, i measured that with my temp gun.


            Originally posted by ChrisAudi80 View Post

            I meant just inputting the simulated NB (0-1v) to the signal in pin on stock ECU.
            There was a problem with using a wideband's 0-1v output with the stock motronic, PRJ talked with me about it a few years ago in the other motronic thread. i cant remember what he said exactly but it will give undesired results because response time is faster or something. maybe he'll chime in on that. im sure there's something that can be done to do it that way. i had the idea to use the 0-5V on the logging input and add code to convert the signal to 0-1v. this way users with only single channel output wideband controllers can participate still. like the AEM uego only has 1 channel out but will do 0-5v or 0-1v, you have to pick one thought and thats the downfall. i ordered the 14 point 7 spartan 2 OEM lambda controller. its price makes it a no brainer at 35USD. i drew up a little enclosure to 3D print for the board to live in and i will be testing this controller with its 0-5v output plumbed into ECU pin 46. if all goes well this controller will be a great cost effective solution for anyone doing PRJmod. this controller has a simulated narrowband output on one pin, not sure if its 0-1v or 0-5v and a second linear 0-5v output that gives 10.0 AFR at 0v and 20.0AFR at 5v.
            Last edited by vwnut8392; 2nd January 2018, 00:07.
            "The really good drivers got the bugs on the side windows." Walter Röhrl

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            • #7
              A wideband feed into the motronic and using of this signal for the fuel injection would be make a lot of things possible, but I could image that a lot of other things are more important.

              @vwnut: Read the Volvo motronic "monster" thread, as far as I remember they modified the motronic code for wideband signals.
              Sensor map you will find in the source code... BExx.
              I guess after 5 years of "working" at the motronic you can find this alone.

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              • #8
                0-1V feed into Motronic - it should be OK, because prjmod binary has the Lambda reading delay patch in it. Meaning i hardcoded a delay from start for which lambda is not used regardless of what the ECU thinks about the status. It monitors the lambda behavior and when it heats up, starts using it instantly, but for a simulated 0-1V input usually it stays at a fixed value while the wbo2 is heating, and it's not the fixed value the ECU expects, so it instantly thinks signal is good and you get 25% fuel trim etc. That is what my patch solves.
                Last edited by prj; 9th January 2018, 18:12.
                http://tuner.ee - http://www.facebook.com/tuner.ee

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                • #9
                  PRJ, what does the signal from a real NBO2 sensor look like during heat-up?
                  When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that individual is crazy. - Dave Berry

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by bmwman91 View Post
                    PRJ, what does the signal from a real NBO2 sensor look like during heat-up?
                    I don't remember. IIRC it's low-to high transition as it warms up whereas many WBO2 units will input a signal in the middle, or slightly below/above center point while heating up. So ECU assumes the sensor is already hot when it's not.
                    http://tuner.ee - http://www.facebook.com/tuner.ee

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                    • #11
                      A little internet research:
                      "As I just discussed, the computer supplies a bias voltage signal to the O2 sensor any time the key is on. This is done so the computer can monitor if the O2 sensor is warm enough to start operating. As mentioned before, a cold O2 sensor outputs no voltage signal. And as the sensor warms up, it starts producing enough voltage to either pull up or pull down the computer-supplied bias voltage."
                      http://www.gmtuners.com/tech/O2.htm

                      This would explain the multiple analog pins on S600 which are used in the O2 sensor circuit. I will do some oscilloscope captures of the inputs and intermediate signals to see what is up.

                      I think that a lot of WBO2 controllers with simulated NB output have (or claim to) a high impedance output state during sensor warm up. If that is the case, then I would think that Motronic would be OK as its pull-up/down circuit should do its job. Innovate Motorsport claims that its LC-x controllers are high impedance during warm-up, and I contacted Alan To of 14point7 to confirm that he also does this in his products (which I currently use).
                      When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that individual is crazy. - Dave Berry

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                      • #12
                        I am saying as a fact without the patch trim gets instantly enabled with 14point7 narrowband signal and ecu goes to +25% fuel fast.
                        http://tuner.ee - http://www.facebook.com/tuner.ee

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                        • #13
                          1 volt signal don't work, give a DTC signal to +.
                          At the moment I use 0.65v as output.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by prj View Post
                            I am saying as a fact without the patch trim gets instantly enabled with 14point7 narrowband signal and ecu goes to +25% fuel fast.
                            Thanks for confirming.

                            Do you have the Bosch or Audi PN for the 2.3.2 DME? I would like to see if I can find one on eBay so that I can do some work in parallel with the same system as people here (since so much of it is the same / similar to M1.7).
                            When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that individual is crazy. - Dave Berry

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                            • #15
                              There's a supported ECU Audi part number list on m232.org.

                              I took a quick look at ebay. These ECUs are getting expensive.

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