KW V3 Setup

[Lago Blue]

Regarding great (lowered) expectations...

Is it not to be expected that with even any minimal amount of lowering from stock heights, a corresponding increase in rates (and therefore likely decreased comfort) is simply mathematically necessary to otherwise prevent suspension bottoming and the loss of vehicular control which that event entails?

Is it not also true that the manufacturers of these kits rightly expect that users would properly and happily employ these items expressly in there intended arena - race-tracks? Much else may be just posing.

If one truly seeks the combined benefits of both improved handling and still some comfort (over a certain appearance as a 1st priority), there is some evidence that staying nearer to the stock equipment and configurations will reward those so inclined.

[M_GORDON]

Well... So...

exist other fine valuable option?

[Lago Blue]

If it were me (and I know nothing about your car or have any KW's experience) perhaps before any more hardware changes, I'd inspect, list, & begin as follows:
- a) Would perceived as severe, even small bumps correctly summarize your major complaint? Is there excessive noise on these occasions? Do you feel (hear?) it anywhere but through the seat?
- b) Some of the easiest things to do would be the sort of the fixes Newsh already mentioned above: (A-arm poly bushes dry, sticky, worn? ARB pivot bushes similarly deficient?);
- c) What tire dimensions and pressures do you run?
- d) Are the poly bushes on just the A-arms perhaps? Which brand / grade / version of poly bushes exactly? Are they the only non-stock suspension items?
- e) Is your suspension B3 or B4 style at the rear?
- f) What exactly (which springs, which dampers) was the suspension previously; and what didn't you like about it? Where you ever happy (or happier) with it?
- g) What (if anything) else did you change out at the same time as the current struts? What exactly did you replace those with?
- h) Have you ridden in someone's wagon whose ride you quite like? Could you yet? (i.e.: and what was / is their set-up?);
- i) Is the current issue primarily front, rear or both ends?
- j) Have you tried to (can you?) alter the damper adjustments as Newsh has above?
- k) Are you certain you have the "with A/C" front springs? How do your current spring rates compare with what you had? Stock spring rates have been documented on a sticky here IIRC);
- l) Are your sub-frames secure, those bushes stock and in very good shape?

[M_GORDON]

Hi.
my aby avant has:

- "rear tie" (Don't know how it said on English) wrecking ball??
- little bit of Hi-Fi on it
- kw v1 for rs2 (with a/a but don't know how see if)
- rs2 arbs with powerflex street
- 98% of pieces changed for powerflex street
- s8 mk1 avus with 225/40/18 (20 and 16mm wheel spacers)
- engine mounts from AKmotorsport
- AKMotorsport front suspension regulable mounts


So...
Little bit lowered.
Front in the middle of the thread and rear on top; totally upply on the thread because the suspension goes down and down with non-use of some years (about 3k kms at year or less on 5 years or more)
I can insert around two fingers between the wheel and the wing (on front and rear)


Ok, in the past, for 10 years, I use the car with a yellow Koni kit with oem springs.
It was taller but the car goes faster, lighter and with less bumps on the turns.
And on high speed driving, the car seems nervous.

I tolk with one friend with same v1 on a UrS4 and he, too, isn't happy with the suspension.
Both, we are thinking to change the suspension

[Error404]

Guys you need to be realistic - there is no free lunch. If you want the car the handle more sharply you need to control the weight transfer, you need stiffer spring rates or stiffer ARBs and ride comfort will always suffer. The fixed damping on the V1 is very good compromise between road comfort and performance but fitting this kind of suspension moves the operating window. V3s use the same spring rates. The damping is adjustable so you can further tune the operating window to you requirements, but you will never make it into a magic carpet.

If you want comfort, stick with stock springs & dampers and 50 profile sidewalls. Expecting a coilover with 2x stiffer springs to be as comfortable as stock is like expecting a GT35 to be a responsive drive around town - fantasy.
The fundamental problem with our old cars is the suspension design, the best way to improve the handling is to try to stop the geometry changing too much dynamically!
That includes stopping the chassis from trying to fold in half.

Fundamentally, you are probably judging it against modern cars with stiff body shells complex multi-link suspension - light years ahead.

[Lago Blue]

Hi M,

You may be correct in that you may have to change your suspension to your liking, but perhaps not all of it, nor all at once.

To start with, where you may want to get to (by answering all those questions I've asked above) is a list of exactly what you have got now; and what you had previously.

One purpose of doing all that is to be able to go through that list of all the possible issues which could be contributing to your perceived poor ride quality and try to see what exactly you are up against, and what may be the possible causes and possible fixes.

Another function this list will help with is possibly point out what might be the easiest and cheapest thing to try and do next.

It may be that with those above questions answered, you can for instance then compare spring rates to see if your KW's are simply just a lot stiffer than your OEM springs; or not! That will help guide your decision making.

It does appear that your current kit would be less comfortable being slightly lowered and the KW's may be the major issue, I have no idea, but 40 series tires are not very forgiving either.

You have answered my questions:

c) - except for tire pressure, could you run a little less pressure perhaps and still be within the recommended range?
d) - except which parts are not Power-Flex?

Please try to do the maintenance items mentioned in point b) above; and please read over again and try to thoroughly answer questions a) and e through l) above. What this will also do is hopefully draw in other readers here who may possibly help you as there are a lot of more experienced folks who come by and may provide suggestions / opinions etc.

More questions:

m) Do you still have your Koni's & OEM springs and struts?

n) Did you install the Power-Flex, KW's and AKM front suspension (top?) - mounts (correct?) all at the same time?

o) Did you always have 40 series tires?

p) What is the model year of your wagon?

So far, what else I think I can understand from your reply is:

- You may have the KW springs for a wagon with A/C, but your not sure, correct?, so please find out - from your receipts or part numbers perhaps. Then we can best compare them against the rates for your OEMs; & you can then best decide a way forward.

- You could drive faster and more comfortably in corners with the Koni's & OEM springs, but it was nervous at higher speeds, correct?

Cheers sir.

[M_GORDON]

Hi.
thanks a lot for your interest and helpfuls

Just sold the old konis and standar springs (I won't pay more money for install oem suspension, MOT etc)

The old suspension was with Poly bushes and avus 18" Wheels

Only change the KW and AK top mounts.
maybe I'll must prove with standar top mounts...

Tyre pressure: 2'35bar and 2,60bar

Car, aby avant with around 400hp and AA
Kw for an adu with AA (initially)

Pd. The seller said that RS2 kw setup is stiffer than aby setup

My problems aren't the little bumps in the car. (I like them hahahahaha)
My problem is the suspension work method: a lot of big "lateral/side" bumps like a broken suspension when I turn heavily and not "stable/flat" response of the car when I goes on the highway at more than 160km/h (autobahn)


2pd.My daily is a Seat Alhambra Mk2 TDI 140hp (stage1+) with green B8 and -55mm H&R



3pd. All Poly except front subframe ("new" rubber ones) and rear diff mounts (old original mounts)

[Lago Blue]

Hi M,

There really isn't room to lower the tire pressures is there, and besides, you need all that pressure just to keep your wheels from being struck; because the tire sidewalls are so short.

Yes, there maybe some slight ride improvement with standard top-mounts, but if your top-mounts, (solids, correct?) are not yet damaged, the handling will not likely be any better.

Question a) above asks whether you feel (or perhaps hear) these possibly two separate behaviours (which may have one cause, who knows):

- 1) "A lot of big "lateral" bumps (not from bumps in the road, correct?) like some part of the suspension was broken when I turn heavily" and

- 2) "An instablity or unsteadyness (correct?) in the (please expand your explanation of this?) response of the car when it goes (you expect the car to simply track straight ahead without your help, correct?) on the highway at more than 160km/h.

(if I've understood you correctly, yes?) anywhere else than besides through the seat, like the steering wheel maybe, or under your feet?

Question b) above asks you to check the easy things first (before more hardware changes) i.e.: disconnect the ARB's and go for a drive and lube the bushings if they need it?.

New question: What about your steering link inner bushes and bracket; and A-arm bushes, could any of those be loose / done, allowing the arms and struts to wander independently?

Question e) Is your suspension B3 or B4 style at the rear? I no nothing about wagons. Either one strut and one A-arm; or two A-arms and one coil-over, which are they?

Question i) Is the current issue primarily front, rear or both ends? If you had to guess?

Question k) asked: - k) Are you certain you have the "with A/C" front springs? How do your current spring rates compare with what you had? Stock spring rates have been documented on a sticky here IIRC). This also is important because if you are a B3 type, and two of your springs are stiffer than the other two, it is possible that each pair of springs is not at one end of the car. You need to confirm if you have "with A?C" springs; and where exactly are both of them? Similarly, are any of the springs or (plastic, correct?) perches broken?

Question l) Are your sub-frames really secure to the bottom of the car, those alloy bushes all snug and in very good shape?

Cheers,
David

[M_GORDON]

The avant has rear system like the b5 quattro

ARBs bushings are correctly copper greased

when back home, I'll saw springs refs


Pd. Yes. U understand correctly, one side bumps (left down on right turns) and non stable at high speed (a lot of little nervous bumps on all the car)

[M_GORDON]

Ah! Stearing outer links are news and the stearing mechanism is relatively new.

[M_GORDON]

Is possible that my kw kit is broken?

or is possible if I want more better suspension than the v1 and why that, it seems to me, it is a sh.It... When don't is in reality?

Maybe with a v3 and good adjustment of rebounds, it will be "my" suspen?

[Lago Blue]

Yes! It is entirely possible that something (or some-things) is (or are) bent, broken, damaged, loose, worn, assembled or installed incorrectly, etc., the list is never-ending, however fixing cars by speculation holds no interest for me and is really only successful if you are lucky. Are you feeling lucky?

Alternatively, one might try trouble-shooting.

This involves following a logical series of steps to eliminate possible causes.

Successful trouble-shooting requires in part, investigating those possible causes by performing inspections to look for faults.

To aid us in that investigation, one gathers information through activities such as in your case, what follows:

- visually and physically inspect the appropriate vehicle systems thoroughly;
- research the springs P/N's, their rates, and their actual location; and
- answer the unanswered questions thoroughly, for instance when the question asks "are the steering link inner bushes and/or bracket loose or worn?" We don't really care if the items are new, nearly new, or 30 years old. Are the inner rubber bushes of those links and the little rack connecting bracket they attach to in good shape right now? This would require that you physically inspect them and confirm that there is no play, wear, damage, that the fasteners are not loose, that the holes in the bracket which connects the rack to the adjustable arms are not worn egg-shaped, that the bracket is not cracked or broken. And so on.

Be similarly thorough about all the other components and the previously posed questions.

Precisely because the car is behaving oddly, one should suspect that something is mechanically amiss, and one should be able to visually detect relevant mechanical faults, or if not, take it to someone who can.

If you can't first solve your very odd cornering and instability behaviours, it is quite doubtful that having adjustable dampers to play with would help fix these more basic, more serious and over-riding issues.

No matter how uncomfortable your suspension, it shouldn't be jumping side-ways in smooth corners or be unstable at speed. A different set of struts may, in the end be required before you are happier with the car, but they won't necessarily fix these odd behaviours if they are not at the root of these basic problems. Any set of struts, including what you currently have, that have been inspected, properly assembled and installed correctly would suffice at this point. A simple visual inspection of your V1's would be a good place to start, then inspect everything else using those questions as a guide to get started.

Happy hunting or good luck!

[sal_s2]

I wouldalso suggest getting the wheel alignment checked

[M_GORDON]

Well

MOT passed correctly and no one mechanical problems (we saw)
But I will send the car to the mechanic (for 3rd time)

Thanks a lot.

[newsh]

The Powerflex Wishbone bushes may be dry and not allowing the suspension to rebound, this would make the car skip sideways in bends and not run level. I’ve had this happen.
It doesn’t show up in the MOT because there’s no play.
I believe they changed the design of the bushes to retain more grease but they still need checking regularly.