S2 wishbones on B2 type 85?

[MGaz]

Just a random question :
Do S2 wishbones fit a type 85 CQ?

I'm sure I read somewhere that they do but you have to use the S2 lower ball joint aswell?

I maybe barking up the wrong tree completely here, but if they do fit , do they work with the standard Type 85 strut? And is there any benefits and improvements? Are they stronger ?

[Bowie69]

Much stronger, you will need to use the S2 ball joint, they are quite different, don't know if they fit the B2 chassis or hub though

[Lago Blue]

Hi Sir,

To your questions, yes, yes and yes there are some advantages. For a street driven car, the primary advantage is perhaps not that the A-arms are noticeably stronger while underway, but that more consequently, you must use the larger OD B4 style bushings, and I recommend you use the original OEMs (each one has about twice the volume of the earlier type) which, as they are stronger (more resistant to, front to rear deflection, and more durable), the arm's mounting is therefore about four times as resistant (at least initially) to being displaced fore/aft, and you will notice that (and even more so, more than ten times, and they stay that way, with the last items below):

Forged-front-control-arm-upgrade

Martin's done this...

Warning: Blatant self-promotion follows:

Arm-Stops - A-arms need Arm-Stops just as dampers need bump-stops.

[bluequattro]

B2 uses lower wishbone to mount ARB-check the s2 ones have the hole in correct place for it.
I can look after xmas as I'm fitting s2 coupe full suspension to one of my B2 cqs

[Error404]

B2 ball joint pin is smaller diameter, you need to use RR quattro ball joints which are ludicrously expensive (if you can even buy them anymore).

[newsh]

B2 ball joint pin is smaller diameter, you need to use RR quattro ball joints which are ludicrously expensive (if you can even buy them anymore).

I managed to get a pair last year, but yeah, expensive..

[MGaz]

B2 ball joint pin is smaller diameter, you need to use RR quattro ball joints which are ludicrously expensive (if you can even buy them anymore).

I guess machining the bottom of the b2 strut larger would be a bad idea?

also, from what I've seen on pictures, the S2 wishbones look offset? Would this push my wheels further forward?

are they also any longer? Pushing the wheels further out of the arches? Or maybe giving more camber ?

[Lago Blue]

Good questions sir...

Switching to a later (B3?) two-piece strut (and brake, i.e. from the 20v saloon?) may be easier (and offer more up-side) than trying to successfully machine an already tapered slotted hole.

WRT offset, one needs to look at the total picture, A-arm plus a particular ball-joint.

WRT length, I believe all the front type A-arms (there are at least 6 versions) are the same (and all contain the hole needed to allow fitment of the early style A/R bar link rubbers), and that the track increase seen on the coupes and B4 cars; is defined by their hub carriers.

This thread may be of help:

https://www.s2forum.com/forum/technical/suspension-steering/2060841-3-bolt-ball-joint-versions-and-related-info-a-more-definitive-guide

[MGaz]

Good questions sir...

Switching to a later (B3?) two-piece strut (and brake, i.e. from the 20v saloon?) may be easier (and offer more up-side) than trying to successfully machine an already tapered slotted hole.

WRT offset, one needs to look at the total picture, A-arm plus a particular ball-joint.

WRT length, I believe all the front type A-arms (there are at least 6 versions) are the same (and all contain the hole needed to allow fitment of the early style A/R bar link rubbers), and that the track increase seen on the coupes and B4 cars; is defined by their hub carriers.

This thread may be of help:

https://www.s2forum.com/forum/technical/suspension-steering/2060841-3-bolt-ball-joint-versions-and-related-info-a-more-definitive-guide

Thank you for the info.

Slight deveation , with regard to the track increase , is there any 4 stud hub/strut combination that would give me a 'narrower track' compared to the B2 CQ track?

I'm only wondering because I have a set of 16 inch Borbet A's that are slightly too offset and scrub the arches.

So just wondering if there was a setup out there that could give me a narrower track and help fit my Borbet inside the arch better ?

[Lago Blue]

I'm afraid I can't advise you on that except to say it may not be the greatest idea, either in the mechanical sense or for safety, to consider modifying the suspension to fit what are the wrong wheels in the first place.

[MGaz]

I'm afraid I can't advise you on that except to say it may not be the greatest idea, either in the mechanical sense or for safety, to consider modifying the suspension to fit what are the wrong wheels in the first place.

No worries. .

So to sum up, the S2 offset wishbone will still place the wheel in the centre of the arch due to the ball joint being offset back in the opposite direction relative to the wishbone .

And the only issue is finding a 3 bolt ball joint with a smaller locating pin?

Does anybody custom make the right size ball joint for this wishbone swap on a b2? Such as 034 or anybody like that ?

or is my only option finding sport quattro ball joints if I intend to keep using my original suspension struts/legs ?

[Lago Blue]

"or is my only option ...?"

Perhaps your best option? There may not be a lot wrong with your original struts and arms, is there? Wasn't there an obscure odd-ball rally car that in its' debut, won some races with basically the same equipment? Darn, I forget the name of it!

Warning: Blatant self-promotion follows, but hear me out:

Unless you do something with the OEM A-arm bushings, which IMHO are best for the street (hint: use with Arm-Stops), in either case, what material your arms are made of is made moot, as on a commuter car it's unlikely you'll suffer from A-arms that are too flexible. They didn't seem to bother Sterling or slow down Stig or Walter. In my view, the reported perceived benefit of forged over pressed arms is because the reporter is comparing worn-out small bushed arms with brand-new big-bushed arms, and the net effect of all those bigger new bushes just does a much better job of holding the bottom of the strut properly still (at least briefly when they are new) when you're really needing them to, and for longer than the smaller ones. Yes un-aided, they too will also perish just as the small ones do, (again ergo: Arm-Stops). Stock can be silent, maintenance-free, and hard to beat for the price. This is the type of mod that actually gives you more bang for very few bucks compaed to what you are pursuing (technically I should say less bang, in fact no bang at all as it prevents the banging that the stock set-up allows!).

If you did manage to cause an A-arm to flex (how much would it flex, a few thou?) while underway, so what, would you even notice? At least the arm is going to spring back, but a worn or damaged bushing won't and the amount of random slop that soon develops in un-aided bushings gone soft is easily (measurable with a ruler and), actually consequential to driving.

It may be that while you continue your quest for the unicorn of ball-joints, you may already have in your hands, the makings of a world-championship worthy street suspension, no?

[varia]

This is my urq, complete drive-train, suspension, control arm, sway-bars, etc. was swapped over from a 1991 audi coupe quattro (usa model, 7A)
The hub on the front came from a C4 A100/A6q (2.8L V6 12V usa model) rear, same offset as the S2 front.

http://quattro4life.com/images/post/side1.jpg

On an other urq, I used AK (Verkline) Control Arms.
This US model urq was an early model, and had 18mm ball joint, I had to turn down the one from Albert, other than that, everything was great.

http://quattro4life.com/images/post/early_urq.jpg

[MGaz]

"or is my only option ...?"

Perhaps your best option? There may not be a lot wrong with your original struts and arms, is there? Wasn't there an obscure odd-ball rally car that in its' debut, won some races with basically the same equipment? Darn, I forget the name of it!

Warning: Blatant self-promotion follows, but hear me out:

Unless you do something with the OEM A-arm bushings, which IMHO are best for the street (hint: use with Arm-Stops), in either case, what material your arms are made of is made moot, as on a commuter car it's unlikely you'll suffer from A-arms that are too flexible. They didn't seem to bother Sterling or slow down Stig or Walter. In my view, the reported perceived benefit of forged over pressed arms is because the reporter is comparing worn-out small bushed arms with brand-new big-bushed arms, and the net effect of all those bigger new bushes just does a much better job of holding the bottom of the strut properly still (at least briefly when they are new) when you're really needing them to, and for longer than the smaller ones. Yes un-aided, they too will also perish just as the small ones do, (again ergo: Arm-Stops). Stock can be silent, maintenance-free, and hard to beat for the price. This is the type of mod that actually gives you more bang for very few bucks compaed to what you are pursuing (technically I should say less bang, in fact no bang at all as it prevents the banging that the stock set-up allows!).

If you did manage to cause an A-arm to flex (how much would it flex, a few thou?) while underway, so what, would you even notice? At least the arm is going to spring back, but a worn or damaged bushing won't and the amount of random slop that soon develops in un-aided bushings gone soft is easily (measurable with a ruler and), actually consequential to driving.

It may be that while you continue your quest for the unicorn of ball-joints, you may already have in your hands, the makings of a world-championship worthy street suspension, no?

Perhaps for simplicity I should just get a new set of standard wishbones for the b2 CQ .

The next question then is which manufacturer should I buy from? As there seems to be a few options out there of various pricing?
Can anybody recommend which ones wont be rubbish? Or are they all pretty much the same?

[MGaz]

On an other urq, I used AK (Verkline) Control Arms.
This US model urq was an early model, and had 18mm ball joint, I had to turn down the one from Albert, other than that, everything was great.

early_urq.jpg

Those wishbones are quite pricey.. But they do look nice.

What type of damper are you using and what type of cone spring tops are you using? And are those just OEM rubber top mounts?

Edit: ALSO what spring rates are you using for the front and rear and also the helper spring rates?
Cheers.