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  • #46
    All quiet on LH front...

    For now at least. A80Avant:
    a) Did you use the Mount-Savers in the plain mounts after their use in the Pro-Mounts? If yes, please say what mount brand , P/N and/or sourcing?
    b) If the 034s do disappoint, perhaps reconsider the Pro-Mounts (they do look weathered, sea-spray perhaps?) but if the bearings (separated from the mount or not) are now un-stuck and still operate (you likely know enough to not risk contaminating the Teflon lining with any POL products) and the Mount-Savers will still fit into the top cavity, if you wanted to, you could likely run them again;
    c) I'm not saying the Mount-Saver top-ring could make noise, but I could send you an additional pair of non-metallic rings (space permitting, how deep is the Pro-Mount cavity? Greater than the Mount-Saver's height? See also my avatar photo.) to isolate them from the inner fender, removing that possibility; &
    d) As you've a wide experience here, could you please speak further about both transitions: from Boge's to Bilstein's dampers; and from Bilstein's to Koni's, WRT ride and handling; and what other changes that may have taken place with and/or during each change-out that may have also had a bearing on your impressions?

    Bowie69 Re: "... Are they different on a CQ20V?" The originals for that car would have been:
    a) Boges, and at their debut, amongst the strongest of OEMs available at that time;
    b) of lesser sustained load capacity in comparison with the latest Boges, made for the V6 and all the later cars, RS2s included; &
    c) despite that their physical appearance is nigh on identical, perhaps not widely understood is that although the later versions are understandably backwards compatible (and the dealer would only supply those latest ones), it also follows that the reverse is not really true, precisely as earlier editions are; all weaker (so you can imagine why the dealer wouldn't stock or order those). But weaker are certainly "out there"; and "popular" too!

    You have done very well to have both 50k on yours and no complaints. Perhaps you are familiar with gauging how much clearance you have between the cupped-washers lower inboard edges and the painted inner fender strut tower-tops underneath? Please say what mounts you have; and what clearance height (remaining mount life) do they indicate?

    Separately, although certainly related:

    s2driveruk Re: "If there is any slack on the wishbone (a.k.a. A-arm) bushes, e.g. no washers either side of the bushes then they will knock, especially at slow speed." While I'm not entirely clear whether you meant poly or OEMs, with OEM bushes, I certainly agree. That axial movement (which left alone, the stock install silently and rapidly allows) is the primary cause for failure of otherwise correctly (as per factory) installed A-arm bushes. For others seeking relief who may prefer what new stock Boges can be made to offer very long term here, these may interest you:

    "Arm-Stops"
    Last edited by Lago Blue; 2 September 2018, 18:12.

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    • #47
      Lago Blue ,

      To be honest, I'm really not sure what make they were, maybe even Febi, certainly aftermarket, I couldn't stretch to genuine, or 'performance' aftermarket at the time.

      I don't really consider the top mounts to be 'dead' until they make a noise/start rattling. I'm aware that they do 'crush' over time, therefore effectively lowering the vehicle, but I haven't had any adverse problems nor noise from them.

      If you point me to where I should be measuring, then I can take a look, and see what is going on...

      The car is on 60 profile tyres which may help, but is driven hard, witnessed by the bump stops which seem to shred themselves in short order (like 3K...). If any one has a good source for them I would be interested, last time I had it apart I substituted an old poly bush from a Land Rover onto the shock shaft(!).

      Comment


      • #48
        Bowie69

        a) Can't fault you there sir. When the consensus seems to be that certain failure is always the expected outcome in any case, why pay more for an indeterminate service-life and perhaps no perceptible NVH or steering feel benefit, what's the point? However, I think what may be worth considering is the contribution new mounts make to the ride quality and steering feel.

        But briefly, since you mentioned that particular brand, I do want to high-light the necessity of paying attention to exactly what we are buying, by pointing out that Febi appears to have a two-tiered approach to our top-mounts, offering two options, likely with different prices; and little apparent explanation. I expect that one is EU made and one not. I would also expect different outcomes. I'd further expect to find that they are not alone in doing this. I'll attach pics later. Bottom line is we perhaps ought not to choose mounts simply and loosely by brand &/or the moniker "OEM", but on proven fit, load capacity and service-life.

        More generally, I don't think anyone can either fail to notice or dislike the lively feel of driving on new top-mounts. Gotta be a reason for that. I think our aim here ought to be the preservation of as much of that as possible. But perhaps of more practicality, I think we ought to simply employ what has proven to be a method to get a much improved service life out of an OEM. In my view, it is not the actual mount cost that should deter us from that aim (because frankly, anything less has proven to be almost immediately thrown-away money), but that the associated work/time/$ that we lay on top of top-mounts which really ought to compel us to ensure better outcomes; longer term. Perhaps by taking a longer view, we might recognize a) the value (in saved re-work); and b) the economy (in say, dollars / year) and c) the increased enjoyment due to the decreased frequency of failures of that initially expensive but toughest of OEMs plus its' re-enforcement mod; is perhaps in fact actually a cheaper route to also improved outcomes?

        b) "This mount is not dead, it's just sleeping!" Three points perhaps worth considering regarding the possible consequences of the normal continuous sink of OEM mounts:
        - Vulnerability to "the big one" (i.e.: a pot-hole that totally fails the mount at one go) increases as the mounts continue to collapse over time; and what constitutes a big enough "big one" at the same time; shrinks;
        - Drive quality is ebbing away with sinking mounts, perhaps slowly enough that you haven't noticed the change, but every day the connection between your hands and what each wheel is actually doing; is worsening;
        - Vague steering, the bane of our nose-heavy cars, is only encouraged by stock top-mounts which, until the bearing is being pounded into the underside of the inner fender's turret-top, lack an adequate and definite travel stop which in turn yields a constant fixed vertical home position; long term. The lack of same in the stock arrangement has, with worn mounts, a good deal of uncontrolled and unwanted vertical movement between the top of the strut and the chassis.

        As "as new" mounts kept that way offer relief from the above, I think you get my drift.

        c) Regarding gauging and understanding mount collapse, I'd first point you here:

        "Got change?"< Seen this explanation (post #13 in particular in this thread)? Sorry, I do go on a bit.

        d) I'm fond of 60 series tires myself I have to say (its a $ / lb. of fun on imperfect roads kind of thing!). Separately, is it possible that there is a mis-match between your spring length &/or rate; and your damper length that results in this? Could trimming the length of the stop on it's soft end ameliorate said damage?

        Comment


        • #49


          Originally posted by Lago Blue
          All quiet on LH front...

          For now at least. A80Avant:
          a) Did you use the Mount-Savers in the plain mounts after their use in the Pro-Mounts? If yes, please say what mount brand , P/N and/or sourcing?
          b) If the 034s do disappoint, perhaps reconsider the Pro-Mounts (they do look weathered, sea-spray perhaps?) but if the bearings (separated from the mount or not) are now un-stuck and still operate (you likely know enough to not risk contaminating the Teflon lining with any POL products) and the Mount-Savers will still fit into the top cavity, if you wanted to, you could likely run them again;
          c) I'm not saying the Mount-Saver top-ring could make noise, but I could send you an additional pair of non-metallic rings (space permitting, how deep is the Pro-Mount cavity? Greater than the Mount-Saver's height? See also my avatar photo.) to isolate them from the inner fender, removing that possibility; &
          d) As you've a wide experience here, could you please speak further about both transitions: from Boge's to Bilstein's dampers; and from Bilstein's to Koni's, WRT ride and handling; and what other changes that may have taken place with and/or during each change-out that may have also had a bearing on your impressions?

          Bowie69 Re: "... Are they different on a CQ20V?" The originals for that car would have been:
          a) Boges, and at their debut, amongst the strongest of OEMs available at that time;
          b) of lesser sustained load capacity in comparison with the latest Boges, made for the V6 and all the later cars, RS2s included; &
          c) despite that their physical appearance is nigh on identical, perhaps not widely understood is that although the later versions are understandably backwards compatible (and the dealer would only supply those latest ones), it also follows that the reverse is not really true, precisely as earlier editions are; all weaker (so you can imagine why the dealer wouldn't stock or order those). But weaker are certainly "out there"; and "popular" too!

          You have done very well to have both 50k on yours and no complaints. Perhaps you are familiar with gauging how much clearance you have between the cupped-washers lower inboard edges and the painted inner fender strut tower-tops underneath? Please say what mounts you have; and what clearance height (remaining mount life) do they indicate?

          Separately, although certainly related:

          s2driveruk Re: "If there is any slack on the wishbone (a.k.a. A-arm) bushes, e.g. no washers either side of the bushes then they will knock, especially at slow speed." While I'm not entirely clear whether you meant poly or OEMs, with OEM bushes, I certainly agree. That axial movement (which left alone, the stock install silently and rapidly allows) is the primary cause for failure of otherwise correctly (as per factory) installed A-arm bushes. For others seeking relief who may prefer what new stock Boges can be made to offer very long term here, these may interest you:

          "Arm-Stops"
          Pro mounts did last longer than any other top mounts.

          1. I used OEM top mount along with the mount savers. I did consider using the Teflon on top of the metal ring so that if or when the top mount eventually squeezes then the Teflon would not make any noise. I don't remember where I got them as I had them for many years. I could have bought them from Audi.

          2. I'd be happy to reconsider the Pro mounts so long as someone can service them. I use koni shock absorbers now so I'm not sure if the need some sort of modification or not. If you are happy to refurbish them I can send them. I lived in the UK whilst using the promounts and there is a lot of salt use on their roads. Hence the damage.
          I do have at least 2 sets of mount savers Teflon and metal rings.

          3. Boge: new worked well for 20k km and all 4 spilled their guts.
          Bilstein: very good, harder car sits higher a bit but a bit harsh for Greek roads. Absolutely fine for UK roads.
          Bilstein with custom height adjustment and custom springs(slightly stiffer) very nice for UK roads. Less body roll on a mere 15mm drop all all-round. However way too harsh for Greek roads again so now trying out koni shocks.

          Koni on a few clicks before the softer setting and it is fine for Greek roads and sustainable.

          Top mounts now on 034 so I can't use mount savers. I have another 2 sets of those so I'm happy if the Pro mounts can be refurbished so I can have them for the future

          Comment


          • #50
            A80Avant,

            Thanks for all that sir.

            1) The intent of the original maker was despite that they might fit into others, that Mount-Savers be used only in the Boge 355A suffix mounts. Reason, he tested a variety and repeatedly found these to be the strongest; longer term. His aim being to provide a life-time guarantee-able fit and forget fix for top-mounts, he wanted folks to start with the best OEM that was also widely available anywhere. If you go that route again, you may do better with those particular Boges. It's good that you didn't run the Mount-Savers with the ring position reversed as that would be quite hard on them.

            2) Best case would be that those P/Ms may be ready to work OK again with just a simple cleaning and bearing clearance check? Except you thought perhaps the bearings where seized at some point?

            3) This is great to hear from someone who's tried a bunch of options and in different locales. Goes to show there are different horses for different courses.

            4) Coincidentally, there is a Strut-Stop tester in Greece who may have some miles on them if in time you have to re-visit top-mounts.

            Cheers!



            Comment


            • #51
              One of these is not like the other...

              To my mind this is the kind of nonsense one has to wade through with non-dealer sourced top-mounts. Perhaps most interesting is that between these two listings below one can see that there have been at least 9 VAG revisions to this mount all used on Audis, at least 8 of which are going to be inferior. This should make clear to everyone just how granular one must specify to get the latest iteration.

              Here are the two different Febi mounts mentioned earlier up thread, an "old" (taller) and a "new" (shorter) "implementation" Either can be ordered as a Febi or a Swag. Unfortunately I think, both of them list usage on the V6 cars, as only one of them actually lists as suitable for use as the 8A0 412 323D P/N (you can probably guess which!):

              https://partsfinder.bilsteingroup.co...cle/febi/10446

              https://partsfinder.bilsteingroup.co...cle/febi/02429

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