Quaife for the 01E transmission?

[AnLe]

I have been thinking about trannys and diffs for a long while now. Think about this senario:
You are doing some rally-type driving down a snow-packed road...you are taking a right turn at speed with trees on your left. When you start to drift it a little in a controlled manner, the center TorSen is going to transfer power to the wheels with more traction...so while you were controlling your drift, the power suddenly shifts to the front wheels...this would slow then down and you'd quickly loose traction as they lock up before they begin to spin slowly. By now, you've just crapped your undies because the trees are too close for comfort.
...

Thats why audi sport or any one else serios competitor has never used it.
You cannot never drive same corner twice to same way. But normal dudes,
this is no problem, and I dont care, just that I dont want the fu*ing under steer.

[NoNonsense]

Heeheh Joe - our posts are wee bit of sync... Kinda like delay on a satellite phone

Turbo Lag, if you will

Am I correct in saying that the UR (with locakable centre diff) is easier to drive on the limit as you don't get the mindf*ck with the Torsen switching ends when the front starts slipping ? Your heart says 'lift off' but your brain says 'keep your foot in'.

Given the impossiblity of a lockable Torsen or ATB, then I'm swaying back to the lockable centre diff from a UR or 200 (4000/5000) in keeping with your thoughts.

Means its normally open in the centre until you need to lock it for the traffic light grand prix, the odd snow day or getting stuck in the beach. I think the benefit of Torsens or ATB for front and rear diffs would outweigh have a Torsen in the centre. Ultimately I feel this might be the easiest and most fun to drive...

Trouble is we'll have to pay lots of money to find out for ourselves !!!!!!


Paul

That is my line of thinking. Granted, Paul, I am no expert on diffs, but from my studies and research, if you are going to race with AWD, then the center should be locked. You will have less torque steer, and more braking power. Coming out of a tight turn at the track, when I punch it, I get lots of wheel spin up front for a second, and this makes me then take the corner too tight or too far out. With equal power going to front/rear, this problem should be remedied. The 4000Q tranny, which has very close ratios, bolts right up to the 20vt engine. I haven't figured out drive-shaft yet, but quaife makes a LSD for the front. I'll probably snag either a rear torsen from an Audi V8 at a parts yard for cheap, or get a rear diff from a B5 A4 (since it's virtually the same as ours but with electronic locking and no user input) and add a Quaife LSD to that. Honestly, though, I'm going to research it, but do nothing about the front until the tranny blows. As for the rear, well, I might be going that route sooner than later.

[S2central.net]

Gawd yeah - Quaife does indeed list an ATB front diff for the 016 box...

There weren't many Audi V8's made, so sourcing that rear Torsen diff could be tricky. Maybe a good idea is to investigate with Quaife on the possibility of putting an ATB into the S2 rear diff case ?????

Coupe and Avant/Sedan rear diffs have different casings but I supsect the actual diff components are identical. Thinking further, there can't be much difference in all the quattro open rear diffs from UR onwards - maybe its not a big task for boys like Quaife.

Lee - whaddya think ?


Paul

[NoNonsense]

Gawd yeah - Quaife does indeed list an ATB front diff for the 016 box...

There weren't many Audi V8's made, so sourcing that rear Torsen diff could be tricky. Maybe a good idea is to investigate with Quaife on the possibility of putting an ATB into the S2 rear diff case ?????

Coupe and Avant/Sedan rear diffs have different casings but I supsect the actual diff components are identical. Thinking further, there can't be much difference in all the quattro open rear diffs from UR onwards - maybe its not a big task for boys like Quaife.

Lee - whaddya think ?


Paul

Paul, you'll notice the part number for the front 016 ATB from Quaife is identical to the rear of a B5 A4 quattro. Our cars (as far as my sedan and the avants) have the same rear suspension as B5 A4, so I would guess that I could simply bolt in a B5 differential and add the quaife ATB. Here in the US, many audi breakers have V8 cars...maybe they were more popular here.

[Lee]

I don't get any of these wierd handling affects you guys describe. Got 285bhp but run big tyres with larger rubber up front. I drive it like I stole it generally if I have no passengers in the car and I track it on, and over, the limit. I do no off road stuff except spank it on the country lanes which are sometimes muddy or covered in cow ****. In wet, damp or greasy conditions I get drifting...no oversteer, no understeer. Thing will change with more power, but at the moment it is extremely predictable and surefooted: I like the setup a lot. Took ChrisM out in Scotland for a spin giving it some beans around a few roundabouts with hard left, right, left under power...wasn't on the limit but I think he was surprised at the poise with 2 up.

If I have 4 people in the car I have had snap oversteer on a few occasions and lift off to pull it into line. Because I don't have enough power and too much grip I can't hold it in a slide with opposite lock. Lifting off power snaps the car back into line which passengers sometimes get nervous about! LOL!

The fronts used to spin when doing a launch but I did a few recently with friends watching (and applauding because it was ouside the pub!!) where all 4 wheels just lit up....this again, was after the switch to 255 fronts and 235 rears. So preference to one axle spinning more than the other hardly exists anymore for my car.

On the track I have a very smooth driving style with no sudden inputs. I try not to upset the car as I am not in it for show but just going faster I find more fun.

ATB = Automatic Torque Biasing. Different construction but same operating principle to the Torsen but I suspect Torsen is a trademark (ref earlier question on this). Actually the main difference in construction is that the ATB has much less moving parts so I suspect it can be made stronger than the Torsen.

Getting Quaife to make one should not be an issue. Rear diff casing on the Avant and RS2 is different to the Coupe but I haven't had a good look on ETKA yet to see if the internals differ. But as you suggest, car manufacturers are not in this game to optimise their products, they are a business trying to maximise profits so modularity is likely high on such a relatively low volume vehicle...especially for the expensive bits!

[AnLe]

Gawd yeah - Quaife does indeed list an ATB front diff for the 016 box...

There weren't many Audi V8's made, so sourcing that rear Torsen diff could be tricky. Maybe a good idea is to investigate with Quaife on the possibility of putting an ATB into the S2 rear diff case ?????
Paul

Don't you read these forums, this is exactly what I / we where trying to do,
I need measuremts from qaiffe to try it my self, some one in uk could do just
bu carrying std s2 part to the shop.

[Lee]

Quaife are unlikey to give measurements. Easier to take a diff to them so they can check all necessary features without giving away full manufacturing drawings or detailed Interface Control Drawing.

My preferred option for config would be ATB front and rear with possibly an LSD centre or lockable centre as previously discussed. Mine is so nicely balanced at present that I am not going to touch it yet. Will see what it is like with over 500bhp later on...;-)

[Doug_RS2]

If I have 4 people in the car I have had snap oversteer on a few occasions and lift off to pull it into line. Because I don't have enough power and too much grip I can't hold it in a slide with opposite lock. Lifting off power snaps the car back into line which passengers sometimes get nervous about! LOL!

Yes - they do get nervous - especially when they are trying to hold the pizzas

[Lee]

Lmao, Sorry about that Doug!! Can't remember which other 2 guys from here were in the car at the time. Dad wasn't in the car otherwise I would have got a slap across the head back at your gaff.

[NoNonsense]

Quaife are unlikey to give measurements. Easier to take a diff to them so they can check all necessary features without giving away full manufacturing drawings or detailed Interface Control Drawing.

My preferred option for config would be ATB front and rear with possibly an LSD centre or lockable centre as previously discussed. Mine is so nicely balanced at present that I am not going to touch it yet. Will see what it is like with over 500bhp later on...;-)

Lee...how long can you consecutively run your car around the track before you need to cool things down??

[Lee]

Depends on the track....on something tight and technical like Oulton Park the tyres give up first as I use street tyres until I can justify slicks and spare rims. Brakes never cook. Most tracks are limited to about 4 to 6 laps before the tyres start dying or the oil goes above 140C (hence 44 row cooler sitting in the garage ready to go in!).

[porkkis]

AYV 3B&ABY coupe:
Diff body: 017 525 121A
Left bearing: 005 409 123
Right bearing: 016 409 123
Internal pinion set: 005 498 081
Crown&pinion: 017 525 143 F and later on 143 K

ABY/ADU avant/sedan:
Diff body: 017 525 121A
Left bearing: 005 409 123
Right bearing: 016 409 123
Internal pinion set: 016 498 081 A
Crown&pinion: 017 525 143 A

A4Q B5 1996
Diff body: 016 525 121 D
Left bearing: 113 517 185 C
Right bearing: 016 409 123
Internal pinion set: 005 498 081
Crown&pinion: 01H 525 143 (37:9 version as S2/RS2)

B4 and B5 has the long type rear diff so probably that's why crown+pinion is different. Different internal pinion sets might mean different CV flange splines (but unlikely).

HTH

[porkkis]

Random 016 front diff pick: 100 quattro -86
Diff body: 088 409 121 B
Left bearing: 016 409 123
Right bearing: 113 517 185 C
Internal pinion set: 090 598 081
Crown&pinion: 016 525 143 AP (37:9 version as S2/RS2)

[NoNonsense]

Depends on the track....on something tight and technical like Oulton Park the tyres give up first as I use street tyres until I can justify slicks and spare rims. Brakes never cook. Most tracks are limited to about 4 to 6 laps before the tyres start dying or the oil goes above 140C (hence 44 row cooler sitting in the garage ready to go in!).

good info....so your exhaust gas temps stay relatively low?

[Lee]

My car was mapped by Mihnea paying careful attention to EGTs to keep everything safe and within limits. I do not monitor EGTs but we did many high load, long duration runs during mapping and they were sitting quite stable (on one mapping session we hit 150mph 10 times in one night, sustaining that speed for quite a while...helps when you map at 2am!!).

Doug has designed and build a flashy EGT/intake temp system that I want to buy off him just to be sure.

Guess the main thing of concern with the diffs are: bearing spacing and inner race diameter, volume, and crown wheel interface and position wrt pinion axis. Suspect the drive splines are the same for all models as you said Porkkis.

Slight digression but on a similar theme: anyone changed the front and rear diff ratios on the (R)S2 by swapping out items from other models??