Post-Mortem on one 4A0721261 Clutch Slave Cylinder Failure

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • UrS4boy
    S2Forum Obsessed
    • Feb 2006
    • 11859
    • Country: Canada

    #1

    Post-Mortem on one 4A0721261 Clutch Slave Cylinder Failure

    I have been trying to keep track of 4A0721261 clutch slave failure modes since mine failed before Christmas 2013. Finally got to see what was what Jan. 2014. (See link at the bottom of this post for the failure modes so far.)

    Here is mine from Jan. 2014



    Having recently posted questions on another forum about Mushasho's "naked" clutch cylinder actuation rod, I realized that if I still had my failed slave cylinder then I could take it apart and answer my question on how the rod was attached to the slave cylinder.

    Mushasho's naked rod (insert rude joke here):



    Okay here is my failed slave cylinder from this afternoon:

    One side:



    The other side:



    With the boot off, exposing the actuation rod:



    Better angle showing the end of the rod sitting in a socket in the slave cylinder piston:



    The rod is NOT attached to the slave cylinder. It merely has a ball end that sits in the socket end of the slave cylinder piston. Held there, in part by the rubber boot (assuming the rod has not broken through the tip of the boot like mine did)



    This photo shows how the actuation rod can be captured and held by a broken tip at the end of slave cylinder rubber boot:



    Conclusion: For reasons not clear, the actuation rod of my slave cylinder caused the fatigue cracking of the plastic tip of the rubber boot allowing the rod to pass through the broken tip. Once out, the rod was disconnected from the slave cylinder piston and (very likely) twisted such that it would no longer push on the clutch throwout bearing activation arm.

    Bottomline: Replacing the clutch slave cylinder might be a good idea after several years, even if it is not leaking. Either that or someone should develop a design for a brass or aluminum slave cylinder boot tip that would not fail.

    REF: Clutch Slave Cylinder Failure Modes
    - http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4s6/msgs/316182.phtml
    RS2'd 93 UrS4 5 spd sedan
    94 UrS4 V8 6 spd manual avant
  • LHD_Kid
    S2Forum Possessed
    • May 2006
    • 3697
    • Home: England Current: Belgium

    #2
    Originally posted by UrS4boy
    Either that or someone should develop a design for a brass or aluminum slave cylinder boot tip that would not fail.

    REF: Clutch Slave Cylinder Failure Modes
    - http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4s6/msgs/316182.phtml
    Or, do as audi did on the type 85 and have the rod made in one piece of metal with no plastic bits at all. (There's a plastic 'nipple' at each end of the rod...)

    I just had mine made out of stainless, works a treat and will not fail (doing the same for the damper section near the pedal too...

    Edit: I took a photo for comparison, will post it up when I download the pics from my camera...
    Last edited by LHD_Kid; 10 September 2015, 18:29.
    Honda CBR 1100XX Blackbird Turbo....undergoing major changes.....
    S2 Coupe... bit easier off the line...
    '03 ZX12-R daily hack.... lots of nice bolt ons...

    Comment

    • UrS4boy
      S2Forum Obsessed
      • Feb 2006
      • 11859
      • Country: Canada

      #3
      Originally posted by LHD_Kid
      Or, do as audi did on the type 85 and have the rod made in one piece of metal with no plastic bits at all. (There's a plastic 'nipple' at each end of the rod...) I just had mine made out of stainless, works a treat and will not fail (doing the same for the damper section near the pedal too... Edit: I took a photo for comparison, will post it up when I download the pics from my camera...
      Love to see the photo.

      How do you attach the boot to the forward end of the rod?

      RS2'd 93 UrS4 5 spd sedan
      94 UrS4 V8 6 spd manual avant

      Comment

      • LHD_Kid
        S2Forum Possessed
        • May 2006
        • 3697
        • Home: England Current: Belgium

        #4
        Originally posted by UrS4boy
        Love to see the photo.

        How do you attach the boot to the forward end of the rod?

        You make the rod as an exact match of the plastic ended version...

        (Apologies for the grubby paws, I wasn't taking photos for publication, only for my own records - and definitely not up to your standard Dave!!!)

        Voila:
        Attached Files
        Honda CBR 1100XX Blackbird Turbo....undergoing major changes.....
        S2 Coupe... bit easier off the line...
        '03 ZX12-R daily hack.... lots of nice bolt ons...

        Comment

        • diesel des
          S2Forum Possessed
          • Feb 2004
          • 3896

          #5
          What size is the pistons in these?

          Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

          Comment

          • UrS4boy
            S2Forum Obsessed
            • Feb 2006
            • 11859
            • Country: Canada

            #6
            Originally posted by LHD_Kid
            You make the rod as an exact match of the plastic ended version... (Apologies for the grubby paws, I wasn't taking photos for publication, only for my own records - and definitely not up to your standard Dave!!!) Voila:
            Thanks for posting. I think there *might* be a market for more of these.

            RS2'd 93 UrS4 5 spd sedan
            94 UrS4 V8 6 spd manual avant

            Comment

            • LHD_Kid
              S2Forum Possessed
              • May 2006
              • 3697
              • Home: England Current: Belgium

              #7
              Originally posted by UrS4boy
              Thanks for posting. I think there *might* be a market for more of these.
              I really agree, not difficult to make and it is a fit and forget - especially for those with uprated clutches, even more pressure on the little plastic bits

              There is also the damper rod fixed the the clutch pedal, the rubber gets soft and the rod breaks exactly at that point. A similar action can be taken to remake in stainless, just without the rubber bit. keep the shape, the thread and the ridge for locating the rubber boot (my mark 1 version - the machinist didn't understand exactly what I was after and he forgot the boot ridge ! mark 2 was made but I didn't have a chance to photograph it... but you get the idea!)

              The below may be of use (hope I'm not cluttering your thread!)

              The steel version (mark 1 version remember, without the boot ridge):

              [IMG][/IMG]


              So, the part which fails (this one bent just by the thread)

              [IMG][/IMG]
              Last edited by LHD_Kid; 15 September 2015, 16:27. Reason: typo
              Honda CBR 1100XX Blackbird Turbo....undergoing major changes.....
              S2 Coupe... bit easier off the line...
              '03 ZX12-R daily hack.... lots of nice bolt ons...

              Comment

              • diesel des
                S2Forum Possessed
                • Feb 2004
                • 3896

                #8
                Did anyone measure the bore dia of these or the master cylinder. I'm trying to work out the master cylinder size required in a custom pedal box.

                Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191 using Tapatalk 2

                Comment

                • Tom_
                  S2Forum Extremist
                  • Oct 2007
                  • 1301
                  • Country: Czech Republic

                  #9
                  LHD_Kid Still everything ok with these custom rods? I am thinking of making them, as I have Sachs SRE clutch and OEM BOGE cylinders are both done. I bought Sachs Slave and TRW main clutch cylinder.
                  I was thinking as the slave cylinder rod is freely put there, is there any chance that rod will fall off whilst you hit the clutch? I know that there were two versions of slave cylinder, one with Circle clip and other with that star washer.
                  Last edited by Tom_; 4 January 2023, 05:31.
                  Audi Coupe Quattro 2.3 20V

                  Comment

                  • SteveH
                    Super Moderator
                    • Jul 2003
                    • 4460
                    • Country: United Kingdom

                    #10
                    The rod shouldn't detach as it's trapped between the slave cylinder and the clutch release bearing arm/carrier. The plastic end on my slave split in two using the SRE clutch.
                    91 Modded 3B
                    14 A6 Avant Black Edition

                    Comment

                    • Tom_
                      S2Forum Extremist
                      • Oct 2007
                      • 1301
                      • Country: Czech Republic

                      #11
                      Frankly I disassembly the old stock ones (to see what is going there), but I am struggling to keep these parts inside as the force pushing against my hand is really strong I can't put that circlip inside to lock that rod
                      Audi Coupe Quattro 2.3 20V

                      Comment

                      • LHD_Kid
                        S2Forum Possessed
                        • May 2006
                        • 3697
                        • Home: England Current: Belgium

                        #12
                        My homebuilt ones are still going fine - interesting, I don't remember it being difficult to fit though
                        Honda CBR 1100XX Blackbird Turbo....undergoing major changes.....
                        S2 Coupe... bit easier off the line...
                        '03 ZX12-R daily hack.... lots of nice bolt ons...

                        Comment

                        • Tom_
                          S2Forum Extremist
                          • Oct 2007
                          • 1301
                          • Country: Czech Republic

                          #13
                          I will check the inside , if there isn't something what shouldn't be there, but yeah, really hard to push it
                          Audi Coupe Quattro 2.3 20V

                          Comment

                          • newsh
                            S2Forum Obsessed
                            • Aug 2003
                            • 16226
                            • Country: United Kingdom

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Tom_
                            Frankly I disassembly the old stock ones (to see what is going there), but I am struggling to keep these parts inside as the force pushing against my hand is really strong I can't put that circlip inside to lock that rod
                            Put the cylinder in the vice, find a small socket that fits over the rod, use a ball of rag and extension to push the rod in.
                            If you can get it set up at the right angle you can even push it with your chest which leaves two hands free to fiddle the circlip in.

                            S2 Coupe 3B Project


                            Ur quattro restoration

                            S2 Avant

                            Boost is the new rock and roll!
                            sigpic

                            Comment

                            • Tom_
                              S2Forum Extremist
                              • Oct 2007
                              • 1301
                              • Country: Czech Republic

                              #15
                              Thanks. I Will try it.

                              Odesláno z mého ASUS_X00QD pomocí Tapatalk

                              Audi Coupe Quattro 2.3 20V

                              Comment

                              Working...