Broken Down!

[Duffelcoat]

Car pegged out today, was driving it and it wasn't picking up very well, but was okay, then I could smell burning, took it easy and the car spluttered a few times and then carried on...

One mile later, car died and wont restart.

Checked under bonnet and there was no smoke/steam or anything leaking from under neath, all gauges and levels normal.

Engine turns over and doesn't sound weird or anything, just doesn't fire up.

Car abandoned I get bus back and have left it.

Will get it towed to my mechanic tomorrow, no way I can fix it, but does this sound terminal or something maybe simple like fuel pump?

Not really after a full diagnosis, but if there are any good indications (or bad) that it might be simple or serious will help me sleep!

Cheers
Richard

[rj scotty]

I'll guess first:

Fuel pump?

[adam g]

Can you describe the burning smell, plastic/ wiring insulation. Unlikely you would smell a pump breaking I reckon but could be pump wiring or relay

[Duffelcoat]

Can you describe the burning smell, plastic/ wiring insulation. Unlikely you would smell a pump breaking I reckon but could be pump wiring or relay

Fairly sure it wasn't a wiring type smell, more of a heat burning smell if that makes any sense... didn't smell rubbery either...

I have a spare car here, if it could be something very simple, I could try a swap over

[DJones]

You need to start with the basics, has it got fuel has it got a spark etc..

Swapping parts at random will be nothing more than guess work..

[Duffelcoat]

You need to start with the basics, has it got fuel has it got a spark etc..

Swapping parts at random will be nothing more than guess work..

It has fuel, indeed a very nearly full tank 75 litres as I filled it up the day before!

Just thinking if there are a few obvious simple things I could do, I wouldn't mind trying to save the expense of getting it towed, more worried about it being there tomorrow or vadelised or something nicked as it is on a main road, albeit not on double yellow lines and not in the way of anything, but not an obvious place to park...

I certainly don't have the experience to do diagnosis at side of road, but I could say sway a fuse or relay or check a few basic things,

Anything complicated and it is off to mechanic anyway

[DJones]

It has fuel, indeed a very nearly full tank 75 litres as I filled it up the day before!

Just thinking if there are a few obvious simple things I could do, I wouldn't mind trying to save the expense of getting it towed, more worried about it being there tomorrow or vadelised or something nicked as it is on a main road, albeit not on double yellow lines and not in the way of anything, but not an obvious place to park...

I certainly don't have the experience to do diagnosis at side of road, but I could say sway a fuse or relay or check a few basic things,

Anything complicated and it is off to mechanic anyway

Sorry I mean fuel at the injectors not in the tank though you naturally need it in the tank first...

[Sleeper_Avant]

no good speculation matey

burning could be cambelt rubbing through cover and destroying the head, valves and pistons..................... or a split boost hose making it run lean and everything being "hot"

dont guess as it will drive you mad

[Duffelcoat]

no good speculation matey

burning could be cambelt rubbing through cover and destroying the head, valves and pistons..................... or a split boost hose making it run lean and everything being "hot"

dont guess as it will drive you mad

You are right, I will just leave it and see what mechanic says, if it is terminal then I dare say it will be fairly obvious to the trained eye... and a good excuse to rebuild it anyway!!

[Error404]

If you can I'd tow it onto a side road if you can, if it looks abandoned the plod might tow it and you then have to pay to get it out of their yard

[newsh]

Has it got an aftermarket alarm? if so it could be the connector to that getting hot and killing power to the fuel pump, seen it a few times.

[UrS4boy]

Potential reasons why your AAN/ABY/ADU won't start

Sorry for your problem(s). You're going to have to get logical to sort it. Here is some info from one of my previous posts:

Okay, your AAN/ABY/ADU-powered UrS won't start. Not to panic. There is a solution. However, to get there, you will need to go through some diagnostics/checks to help pin-point the problem.

This post is based on a thread started by Paul Nugent (S2Central.net) on the S2Forum. Paul's post was S2/RS2 specific, particularly on the electrics.

Since "my car won't start" posts are common on our AAN-based forum, I thought that I would build on Paul's post and add the specific AAN-related info that Paul didn't include. I have also added hyperlinks to more info on the potential source(s) of the problem. Hopefully this will help somebody.

Prologue: Sudden failures / no start situations will almost certainly be due to an electrical fault, but there is always a chance that something like a slipped timing belt or whatever can cause such problems. The G6 Fuel pump can also fail with little or no noticeable warning. Same with the G40 Cam Sensors. More below:

0. Battery cables There is no reason to continue with this no start diagnostic until you check your battery cables. If they are dirty or loose, you won't be getting power to the parts that need it, e.g. starter. So <b>please remove, clean and re-install your battery cable ends and retry</b>. Also check the voltage with a multimeter touching the (+) and (-) cable ends at the battery (not the battery posts). Less than 11.5V = put the battery on charge and wait (1 to 2 hrs) before retrying. Once that step has passed, and there is still no start, then we can start the diagnostics in earnest, knowing that the battery is up to snuff and connected properly. Battery info

Assuming your battery and its cables passed the test(s), now we can move on:

1. Immobilizers and Alarms: If you have any doubts about the cars security and/or aftermarket fitments then seek out problems in those areas first. They can be wired in all sorts of wonderful (and stupid) ways to interfere with the starter, fuel pump, coil or ECU wiring.

2. Fuse Checks: Sounds stupid, but check all the fuses and robustness of 12V straps around the battery, alternator, starter and ignition switch. Check ground straps too. It could just be power not getting to the starter. Battery info

3. Starter System: If the car does not turn over (aka "crank") when you turn the key - then suspects are the ignition switch, the starter motor or security (alarm system). A starter motor fault is commonly the solenoid that activates the main feed. If you hear it clicking, then the solenoid is trying to engage the starter. The battery needs to supply something like 120-200 Amps during cold cranking so this is quite a test for old batteries. A weak battery will not start an AAN (see 4.3 below). It can also be a bad connection on the starter.

Audipete suggests that "Bosch decided to not put an insulated wire from the solenoid to the starter motor on many of their starters. In your picture it's covered with a white sleeve. Often its just a bare copper braid and folks assume it's ground - when in fact its the direct opposite -it carries the current to the starter motor field winding. Often that braid will corrode and even disintegrate - and I've had it happen between starts, with a tell tale cloud of acrid smoke...twice my wife has witnessed this, seen and smelled the smoke and said "replace the starter". the other tell tale sign of a failure here is that when you turn the key, the voltmeter drops to 8 volts and nothing happens - no click, nothing."



4. - Starter System Good: If the car spins on the starter, i.e. it cranks, but still doesn't start, then you need to find out which one (or more) of the five main things is improper cam/crank timing, airflow signal, fuel, spark and/or compression.

4.1 - Cam Timing: Check that the alignment marks on the crankshaft pulley (or flywheel via the bell housing window) and the camshaft pulley are perfectly aligned as shown in this Cam Timing post. On an early (pre-mid Feb. 92) AAN with 'tuna can' dizzy - check that the rotor arm (or sensor) alignment is also visually correct. Hand crank the car to be certain that everything moves as it should.... Remember two crank revolutions to one camshaft rotation.

4.2 - Airflow signal: Crazy as it might sound, if the engine is cranking but not starting, a simple check is to disconnect the G70 MAF and try again. A bad MAF shouldn't stop an engine from starting but there anecdotal stories of just that: MAF connected = no start, MAF disconnected = start. In one such case, it was a leaf stuck in the MAF (so many reasons why that should not have happened - but it had and the MAF problem was the no start problem).

4.3 - a) Fuel - Power at the injectors: Check also that 12V is present at one side of the fuel injectors (in the black wire with the red stripe) while the ignition is on - this tells you the ECU is correctly passing power thru an internal Holding relay and that the injector fuse is OK. If not, check the fuses above the ECU

4.3 - b) Fuel - Fuel At the Injectors: The ECU only activates the fuel pump via the J17 Fuel Pump Relay when it thinks the engine is spinning faster than ~13rpm based on a signal from the G28 Engine Speed Sensor. - This is primarily a safety feature that will shut off the fuel pump in a serious accident. Unfortunately, this safety feature also means that a weak battery that is unable to spin the engine during starting to more than 13 RPM will result in a non-start. Charging or replacing the battery can be the quick and dirty solution.

One quick and dirty diagnostic is to remove the intercooler to throttle body hose at the throttle body and have somebody spray starter fluid (ether) into the throttle body (press on the gas pedal a bit to open the throttle plate) while you turn the ignition key to "Start". It the engine fires, it is the fuel system, i.e. the fuel pump. If it doesn't fire, it is likely the G40 cam sensor (see item 4.4 below)

One problem that *could* confound you is if you removed the fuel rail supply and return lines and mixed them up when you reinstalled them, i.e. return to the feed end of the fuel rail and supply to the return end of the fuel rail, after the fuel pressure regulator. This will cause a non-start. (Hint: Label the fuel lines before you remove them for whateve reason).


To confirm that he fuel rail is receiving fuel, you need to split the fuel line at where it enters or leaves the fuel rail. You can follow this fuel pump testing (and replacement) procedure Expect some spillage when working here and do take ALL sensible precaution not to set anything (you, your car, the forest) on fire. You likely need an assistant to try and start the car while monitoring the fuel supply. If you see fuel, then the ECU is definitely powered up and definitely seeing the RPM signal from the G28 sensor. Also it verifies that the fuel pump and relay are active. If you wish to test the fuel supply rate then do so safely with a measured container and operate the pump for 15 seconds - you should get well in excess of ~300cc of fuel in that time. One way to TEMPORARILY force fuel pump on is to remove the cover of the relay and close the contacts with insulating tape... refit the cover and plug it back in. This is for TESTS ONLY for obvious reasons. (This was Paul's suggestion, not mine). More fuel pump info HERE

4.4 - Spark: The ECU only activates spark when it gets good signals from both the G4 crank position sensor and the G40 camshaft position sensor at the expected times. A no spark condition is most commonly caused by a fault G40 sensor - sometime pouring cold water on it will get you home (but that is just putting off the inevitable need to replace the G40 before it totally dies on you). The G4 crank sensor is much more robust but it is worth checking that the G4 reference pin on the flywheel is still intact - can be seen or felt (carefully) through the bell housing window. Next source of failure is likely to be in relation to wiring faults. A common one on ABY/AAN is a bad ground from coil packs to the head and/or intake manifold.

4.5 - Compression Testing: Remove the Fuel pump fuse (Fuse 17) and disconnect the injectors from their harness connection. With a compression gauge screwed into each cylinder in turn - spinning the starter with throttle pedal fully depressed - do this for about 4 or 5 rotations and record the cylinder pressure. They should all be approximately the same and all well above ~10 Bar (145 psi). More compression testing info HERE .

Refit spark plugs (after checking them physically) and tighten no more than 22 lb-ft (30 Nm). Then reinstall the FP fuse and the injector connectors.

5. - ECU Power If the car has 'no fuel' or 'no spark' faults then its wise to check the ECU has good 12V connections and red holder fuse above the ECU is good. If you can retrieve fault codes via OBD 1 (blink codes) then it is a good sign obviously, but it doesn't tell you everything.

6 - Final Checks: Faults in MAF, throttle pot and every other sensor on the engine should not cause a no start condition... If the engine is as follows -

- correctly timed mechanically
- makes good compression (broadly verifies condition of rings, valves and gaskets)
- turns over on the starter faster than ~25rpm (weak batteries may not permit this)
- ECU powered up, earthed and fused correctly (more to come on this one)
- Injectors are receiving nominal 12V supply (key ON)
- Coil or coilpacks are receiving nominal 12V supply (key ON)
- G4, G28 and G40 are wired and working properly
- The fuel pump is good (NOTE - It does NOT prime when you turn the key on)
- There is good fuel in the tank (not 5yr old watered down filth)
- The fuel pump relay is good
- No aftermarket security wiring or hidden switches are messing things up
- Then it simply WILL start... it might run like crap if other sensors are missing

Thanks to Paul Nugent for the majority of the text. I have added and/or rearranged bits to better suit the AAN and likelihoods (e.g. I moved compression testing down the order and added the MAF to the list)

REFERENCE: Paul N's original post

[Duffelcoat]

Thanks for all the replies, it had a lot of sensors replaced recently as a precaution, but fuel pump is unknown age, burning smell had me worried, but hopefully get it recovered today....

[Duffelcoat]

Update!

Went to car this morning and it was still there in one piece which was my main concern, got it trucked to my mechanic for a look.

He came back with the good and the bad news...

Good news - nothing majorly wrong with car

Bad news- it has two fried coil packs and the other three don't look great, presumably due to age etc, mechanic recommends 5 new packs. Audi price £140 each!

Am going to swap the ones off my S4 over as a stop gap and then hopefully source new replacements later on. Don't fancy the £700 Audi bill at the mo!

At least car is safe now and should be back on the road tomorrow

Thanks for all the help and stuff!

[AndyP]

I'd look at converting to the later 1.8T spec coilpacks which you can get for around £25ea.

http://www.s2forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63447