Car running lean

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  • prj
    S2Forum Zealot
    • Mar 2010
    • 6308
    • Country: Estonia

    #1

    Car running lean

    Time for me to ask for help.
    My car seems to run lean (with different chipsets) and I am slowly running out of things to try to improve the situation.

    AFR's under boost (1.2-1.3 bar) 12.9-13.4, when starting to accelerate 15.8-15.9.
    This chipset should run closer to 11.5-12, not 13. At 2900 rpm in that graph is knock, that is why motronic pulls some boost. Others run this chipset at higher boost levels without issues.
    This is a generic chipset, I removed my modifications. Ambient temp was about 5 degrees celsius.
    Second gear pull:


    Background info:
    UrS6 AAN, stock injectors, stock turbo, Motronic.
    Engine rebuilt two months ago, brand new MAF, RS2 exhaust manifold.

    Things I have tried so far:
    1. Different ECU software, that I have seen run richer on other cars.
    2. I have absolutely no boost leaks. System is completely pressure proof up to 2 bar starting the MAF-Turbo hose.
    3. Different FPR
    4. Different MAF
    5. Injectors cleaned
    6. Fuel filter changed

    Today I will temporarily separate the breather system from the intake and also measure my fuel pressure (maybe my pump is going out), then also try totally stock ECU software and measure AFR under boost (it would be helpful if someone could give AFR's with stock software).
    If this does not help, then I am out of ideas.
    Last edited by prj; 26 October 2010, 14:36.
    http://tuner.ee - http://www.facebook.com/tuner.ee
  • GazzaG60
    S2Forum Freak
    • Mar 2007
    • 4133
    • Country: United Kingdom

    #2
    fuel pump.

    towards the end on my stock aby pump it leaned a fraction. also dropped off earller on boost. when i put the o44 in it was overfueling in every area. no other changes

    Comment

    • twoqu
      S2Forum Possessed
      • Sep 2003
      • 3103

      #3
      The Audi Enthusiast website. Forums for all Audis including A4, S4, A5, S5, A6, S6, allroad, A8, S8, TT, R8, Q5, Q7, 4000, 100, 200, v6, v8, vintage, local forums

      Comment

      • prj
        S2Forum Zealot
        • Mar 2010
        • 6308
        • Country: Estonia

        #4
        Mmm... you can really see it in the end getting leaner! Even though it should be going richer, as the turbo starts producing more heat.

        I'll see how my fuel pressure behaves today... If I see it dropping off, I'll order this:
        http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GS341-HRC-255-...item3a5f4a88be

        It uses a Denso pump inside (which is of good quality) and it is not as noisy as the 044. Plus it's 55 quid shipped.
        http://tuner.ee - http://www.facebook.com/tuner.ee

        Comment

        • prj
          S2Forum Zealot
          • Mar 2010
          • 6308
          • Country: Estonia

          #5
          Thanks.
          I will measure the voltage at the pump as well.
          http://tuner.ee - http://www.facebook.com/tuner.ee

          Comment

          • EspenW
            S2Forum Extremist
            • Apr 2007
            • 1534
            • Country: Norway

            #6
            Other possibilities:
            Voltage to fuel pump (also check under load, as it might drop drastically)
            Clogged injector(s)
            Calibration of wideband
            Ethanol in fuel
            Try a pull in higher gear, as the high sweep rate in 2nd causes the mixture to be leaner, due to the xTau effect.
            1995 RS2 on Alcohol (6.8sec 100-200km/h)
            1994 80E Avant
            1986 2L Golf 2 on Alcohol

            Comment

            • prj
              S2Forum Zealot
              • Mar 2010
              • 6308
              • Country: Estonia

              #7
              Originally posted by EspenW
              Other possibilities:
              Voltage to fuel pump (also check under load, as it might drop drastically)
              Will check.
              Clogged injector(s)
              Injectors cleaned with ultrasound and special fluid on a stand three months ago. Also I changed my fuel filter. So that's not clogged either.
              Calibration of wideband
              Possible. But my controller does not require calibration. I will try another sensor today as well. Even though mine is almost brand new.
              Ethanol in fuel
              Some parts of it are there anyway... but... that's a good idea. Maybe I just have shoddy fuel?
              Try a pull in higher gear, as the high sweep rate in 2nd causes the mixture to be leaner, due to the xTau effect.
              Higher gears are similar, but I will try it and log.
              I have a slightly leaner chipset in now...
              http://tuner.ee - http://www.facebook.com/tuner.ee

              Comment

              • Jamo
                Retired OG Mod
                • Mar 2004
                • 21750
                • Country: United Kingdom

                #8
                My bet Voltage at the pump, may have to do a relay install to wire it directly to the battery

                Comment

                • prj
                  S2Forum Zealot
                  • Mar 2010
                  • 6308
                  • Country: Estonia

                  #9
                  But how come it is fine from the factory then?
                  Does something corrode somewhere?
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                  Comment

                  • Rusty
                    Super Moderator
                    • Jun 2004
                    • 18953
                    • Country: United Kingdom

                    #10
                    At stock power the voltage drop isn't enough to affect performance. The more you expect from the fuel pump, the more the voltage drop causes issues, it is a motor afterall and if you drop the voltage, you drop RPM and thus flow.

                    Anyone who's done a relay conversion on stock VW headlights will testify that stock wiring can be poor quality under load.
                    Cheers'en, AndyC
                    1994 ABY Coupe - Projekt Alpinweiss

                    Comment

                    • prj
                      S2Forum Zealot
                      • Mar 2010
                      • 6308
                      • Country: Estonia

                      #11
                      Thing is though, it is lean pretty much all the time.
                      Also, I get slight stutter at idle, but no idea if that's connected.
                      Last edited by prj; 26 October 2010, 17:30.
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                      Comment

                      • Rusty
                        Super Moderator
                        • Jun 2004
                        • 18953
                        • Country: United Kingdom

                        #12
                        Worth getting the voltmeter out for 5 mins to check but sounds like you've got another issue. Air leak is possible but depends where the MAF is for that to work out lean and it wouldn't affect idle particularly... odd for sure.
                        Cheers'en, AndyC
                        1994 ABY Coupe - Projekt Alpinweiss

                        Comment

                        • prj
                          S2Forum Zealot
                          • Mar 2010
                          • 6308
                          • Country: Estonia

                          #13
                          I am pretty sure I don't have an air leak...
                          I get odd stutter and AFR's jumping a bit during the stutter.
                          I wonder if one of the injectors might be slightly bad...

                          Also, my idle is higher than normal.
                          I tried different ECU's as well... same result.
                          But like, the idle issue is not bad or anything. You barely feel it. Every now and then it vibrates slightly and AFR's bump up a bit richer...
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                          Comment

                          • 4WheelDrifter
                            S2Forum Zealot
                            • Oct 2004
                            • 5773
                            • Country: Devon

                            #14
                            Fuel breather ok?
                            SS

                            Comment

                            • prj
                              S2Forum Zealot
                              • Mar 2010
                              • 6308
                              • Country: Estonia

                              #15
                              Measured voltages - when charging, it's close to 14 volt, at the pump it's 12.8 volt, sometimes dipping to 12.6.
                              This is more than enough for the pump, so I'd rule out the voltage.

                              Also blocked the breather system entirely away from the intake system. That made a small difference (probably a leak there somewhere)...
                              I will just install an oil catch tank anyway, so that'll be plugged from now on, but even so.

                              2nd gear:


                              3rd gear:


                              This is different to the software posted in the first post. It's leaner. With the breather pipes plugged in I had about 0.3 leaner mixtures. And yes, there is probably a leak there, as all the rubber hoses are quite tired.
                              But even with that out of the way - still lean... will test a different wideband sensor and controller tomorrow (VEMS Round). If that shows the same, will order a new fuel pump (god knows when it was changed anyway). And if it's still lean after that, I'll drive off a cliff or something :/
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