water / methanol injection questions

[JP]

Are you sure you are not getting Methanol mixed up with Ethanol... Methanol evaporates virtually instantly taking the heat out the air at the same time, so little or nothing to do any damage to guides... Not compared to the amount of fuel that the inlet guides get washed with.

Methanol boils at around 64.6c iirc and is not soluble in oil based compounds. I'm personally only reporting a find that appears to be constantly co incidental and therefore makes me wary.

Only time I've used water injection personally is on a supercharged blow through carb v8. Where we ran a 12 gallon fuel cell filled with water. The injector sprayed onto the blades of the compressor wheel and the outlet of the charger travelled a grand total of less than a foot into the carb. No intercooler or chargecooler it was very effective into the 4 fig power band. It was also not a road car

As for controllability, the aquamist systems do appear to have the upper hand at the moment if you can be bothered to learn to program them properly. Much the same with Apexi boost controllers learn to use them properly and they are blinding don't and you get problems.

[prj]

yes, but the loss of WI will be instantanious, and from 100+ octane (if you run high volume of methanol) you may end up in 96-97 at most of petrol. Will the timing be pulled that fast? Esp, from a motronic that in my case wasnt even hearing knock when i could listen to it?

The fact that your motronic could not hear knock, indicates something broken.
Got a few tunes under my belt now, and not in a single car did I have the problem of Motronic not hearing knock in any part of the rev range. Of course, if your knock thresholds are set up wrong, this is what will happen

Also, HFS-3 has a signal going out. If the controller stops for any reason, or the meth mix runs out, it drops the signal, this can be used for map switching or even wired into N75. Lots of people use it like that over in the US and no one has had any issues.

Plus of course the inherent safeties of Motronic itself. Plus the fact that you will actually be able to see on a WBO2 gauge that you are running leaner than you should. Plus your IAT instantly shooting up and the ignition being retarded and fuel mix enriched _anyway_
It's even safer than having a coolant leak or oil leak in which case the only one who can save the engine is you. Or in case you get bad fuel for some reason...

I mean most people run chipsets with disabled fuel cut limiters for years and nothing happens. If the N75 were to fail and get stuck open on full boost, that'd instantly blow up the engine as well - does not happen that often.

All in all, I'd say running meth is pretty much just as safe as not running it at all.

---

I'm going to try something else on my car - fit a water spray bar on the stock IC and make Motronic control it.

[A80Avant]

yes you always keep your eyes on your wide band when flooring a 4th or 5th gear Dmitri... I bet everyone does that.

If people are already doing this with our motronic over at the US, where they are leaning out the actual motronic maps in order for the WI to work on top, and have tried the failsafes of the motronic and those are faster than than actual preignition or severe knock, i believe you.

[prj]

yes you always keep your eyes on your wide band when flooring a 4th or 5th gear Dmitri... I bet everyone does that.

If people are already doing this with our motronic over at the US, where they are leaning out the actual motronic maps in order for the WI to work on top, and have tried the failsafes of the motronic and those are faster than than actual preignition or severe knock, i believe you.

I would believe even better the tuner that tries that on their own pride and joy!

Yes there is a huge amount of people running water/meth mix in US, because in many parts it is not possible to get more than 95 RON.
And yes, on Motronic of course without any problems. They just wire the safety into N75.

I just wrote to you how it is safe to use. You chose to disregard all my points and only say that you have to watch the WBO2 gauge.
Well, in case your FPR gets stuck and you don't watch the WBO2, then by your logic your engine will blow up as well.
Or maybe don't even start the engine, it could be dangerous with all the explosions inside.

I am done with this. I don't get why you assume that people tuning their engines to 500 hp are like little blue eyed babies and don't know that things can always go wrong.

[A80Avant]

I didnt disregard anything you said, i said ill believe it when i see it. Do it to your car, tune it, get us the results, drive it for a year without issues, and then ill believe it works adequately. Results is what i need, not theory! Dont worry what i think will blow an engine up, its not your concern, as always just relax. It's just a conversation!

this WI madness wasnt going on a few years back although the technology was there since the middle ages.

dont get mixed up with the US fuel properties. Our 98 octane is widely used in the US, no problems there.

Most tuners 'suggest' to the owners to use the WI as an additive, not as a fully implemented procedure to gain more hp, but to reduce the risk of knock during hot weather conditions and heat soak. You are not suggesting that, you are suggesting to be part of the map at all times.

The more you push your luck with an engine you have spent £££ on, the more likely it is to have problems with it. Its either bad workmanship, bad tunership or extreme mods that will make an engine last less. A lot of times everything works fine and all 3 aspects work together nicely. Id say a bit of moderation is never a bad thing

edit: the difference I see is that using WI as an additive, is extra protection+ little gains. Using WI as fully implemented to the map is a lot more gains, but less protection. (that is only my personal view, others may disaggree)

[s2_wot]

Methanol boils at around 64.6c iirc and is not soluble in oil based compounds. I'm personally only reporting a find that appears to be constantly co incidental and therefore makes me wary.

That's due warning enough to anybody who runs WMI and ends up with a mashed valve guide and subsequent consequences.

Only time I've used water injection personally is on a supercharged blow through carb v8. Where we ran a 12 gallon fuel cell filled with water. The injector sprayed onto the blades of the compressor wheel and the outlet of the charger travelled a grand total of less than a foot into the carb. No intercooler or chargecooler it was very effective into the 4 fig power band. It was also not a road car

That thing sounds like a pile of fun, is it still alive?

As for controllability, the aquamist systems do appear to have the upper hand at the moment if you can be bothered to learn to program them properly. Much the same with Apexi boost controllers learn to use them properly and they are blinding don't and you get problems.

Here is the installation manual for the HFS3 that I was forwarded by Richard from aquamist. With some careful planning the installation and operation do not seem to be rocket science.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS3/HFS3v2w1.pdf

Incidentally they have a forum located here: http://www.waterinjection.info/

A couple of things I've learned from reading the instructions and a few threads on that forum. If you set up the failsafe to disconnect the WGFV in the event of a failure being detected you don't need switchable chipsets.

Also in the event that you don't want to run high boost pressing a button on the controller will revert the car to wastegate boost pressure only.

@Billman I take your point about injecting on the individual runners. The only issue I can see with that is that motronic in not seeing the true IAT. Surely this puts guesswork back into the tuning.

[20Vcqdriver]

That's due warning enough to anybody who runs WMI and ends up with a mashed valve guide and subsequent consequences.

.

As stated, with the volumes most on here would be using and as it's only used from around 0.5bar upwards the above mentioned effects are minimal / negligible on these engines . As far as I am aware, Darren (DJones) has been running it (0.5mm jet I think) on his for several years without any detrimental issues...

[Bruce-m]

Hey guys, my names Bruce from Devilsown, A friend of mine Robin sent me the link & asked me to pop on & try & answer any questions.

So ask away & I'll do my best.

[s2_wot]

Can you point me in the direction of any turbo petrol car WMI that was tuned to optimise the system with dyno proven gains at the bottom and top end please?

[Bruce-m]

I can't lay my hands on anything right now where the car was tuned for the water Meth, it's the least most popular way to do it although it will net the biggest gains.

Most are put off though on the costs.

The most recent car I know of with RR results on the forum is Jim on Audisrs forum (in project section) who gained 36bhp from his kit.

The average gain MRC see is about 15-22bhp per car.

I only recommend 20-30% Meth otherwise your AFR will go to rich, although the higher bhp cars seem happy upto 50% Meth, water is better on cooling though.

If most check their timing logs after a good thrash especially on a hot day or on track most will see a good few degrees of timing pull, which as we know means a reduction in power.
With the water Meth most will see this pretty much stop.

There's some good reads on our forum http://www.alcohol-injection.com/for...arged-engines/

Or loads on Audisrs, here's another very recent one http://audisrs.com/sutra332160.php&highlight=#332160

[A80Avant]

looks like i wasnt far off in what I was recommended, which is NOT to substitute fuel for Methanol/water injection thus reducing the afr to keep the mixtures 0.80.

good cooling effect is all you want really, and if proper fuel is not available, then its best to get in deep and put injectors that can inject methanol/ethanol mixtures if that is cheaper than 95 oct fuel.

[s2_wot]

Agreed. Which brings the discussion back around to a quick shot of WM approcahing peak torque to cool things down and another bit if the IAT temps are high. 15bhp gains isn't worth mapping for is it?

[A80Avant]

you could map it more in a way of how your engine will cope.

for example, motronic has an IAT compensation for timing. So if your fuel is always the same and you add some water to it for cooling, your IATs will drop. So long as you dont install the WI injector on top of your IAT sensor so that you are fooling your sensor to think that your IAT is lower than the actual, motronic will increase timing, thus you gain the hp average that is stated above. Adding a small amount of mehanol will just give a bit of more safety to the situation when the spray is on.

BUT the idea is to be safe on tuning that little map, and not touch the actual timing map, so that all gains are down to the cooling effect rather than the actual methanol increasing your octane average.

I had set in mine that when IATs are below 20C, with or without the use of WI, not to trim any timing. Then on anything above that, to gradually trim timing to avoid knock because of high IATs. Motronic can either trim or add timing depending on IATs, so it can be done both ways.

You need a nice working set and a dyno with +/- det cans(some will say you dont need them, but id use them anyway) and tests to tune it properly.

[Bruce-m]

Using IAT's to add or remove timing is where the gains come from water Meth, keep things safe with some good gains.
It'll also help keep EGTs at a good safe temp.

I've always believed a water Meth kit is a small price to pay for excellent engine protection while still picking up some HP

[prj]

Real men run 50% meth, tune the richness out, and run 30 deg timing under boost.
That's how you make power. That's how all the cars that run anything under 11.5 are tuned over here.
Otherwise you may as well just run water injection, but even there, it increases the octane rating.

Also, it is completely wrong to say that 20% meth won't affect AFR, yet 50% will.
Both will affect your AFR. If you don't tune for it, you will see pretty bad gains, like perhaps 5%, maybe 10% on a very hot day.
If you tune for it, you can get 20% all around. Nobrainer for me really. ECU has knock detection and IAT compensation anyway on both fuel and timing, if you tune all that correctly, even if you were to shut off meth under boost, it'd save the engine.
I know that, because I had a car with fuel pump failure mid boost where fuel pressure tapered hard, and it survived, didn't bend rods etc.

Turning off meth would be like getting a vacuum leak between MAF & Turbo, happens to many cars, yet you don't see them blowing engines because of that.
If you go from about 11.5 AFR to 12.5, your engine is not going to vaporize. Yes, it will knock, ecu will catch it and kill the power. You guys really don't appreciate just how tough these engines are - friend of mine ran 2.5 bar boost with crazy knock for half a year on RS2 injectors and RS2 chipset and barely bent two rods, engine never failed.