water / methanol injection questions

[s2_wot]

Heat soak is a proper pita and in general we can only get 95 RON here in Ireland.

Based on these fixed conditions and the results being less boost, more chance of knock, less timing advance etc it surprises me that water meth injection isn't a standard upgrade on our cars if everything I read about it is true.

Therefore I invite those that are using a system to detail their experiences of hardware and software in a single thread. Everything from installation issues to consumption settings to operating parameters.

In addition I have some questions (as always ) which have been drifting around in my mind for a while.

What is the power consumption of the high pressure pump and can you feel the car providing power to it when it's engaged?

Is there anything needed in motronic to achieve the best from the system. If the injection is far enough away from the IAT sensor that the water meth fully mixes with the intake air then is there anything else to consider.

What is the best water / meth mix ratio? I've seen 70/30 and 50/50 mentioned in a few places?

The controls I've seen in some online shops seem to be far from optimised.
Could one of the motronic hackers consider the possibility of using a pid type control circuit to always optimise the delivered IAT. For instance locate another IAT sensor pre and post the intercooler and a little scale to decide what action if any that the water / meth migh take. Likewise it could take a feed off a wideband exhaust sensor or EGT sensor and determine what input could be made to optimise the situation. I think the current systems make decisions based on user provided settings based on boost and throttle position sensor.

All input and links greatly appreciated. Also if anybody in Ireland (north or south) has a system running I would appreciate the opportunity to see it in operation sometime.

[mcandmar]

Slightly Off topic, in relation to crap fuel and ignition timing i was talking to Paul about that recently as i have on going issues with mine. Looking at a few logs i captured he quickly pointed out the ignition timing backing off in the logs due to either dodgy knock sensor, or crappy fuel. Which of the two is yet to be determined. I wouldn't mind grabbing a few logs from yours to see if it is doing the same. Also incase you were not aware Maxol fuel over here is actually E5 and has a RON rating of ~99 which does help a bit, the difference is noticeable as my car is not happy when i have to stick a few quid of juice in from other Petrol stations.

Interested to hear more about Water Injection, can it make up for poor quality fuel or is it only used to combat heat soak?

[[RPM]]

as far as I know it prevents knock
so on the same fuel you could advance the timing and rum more boost safly
I going to run it on my car

[s2_wot]

The pure alcohol will burn and add something to the RON rating but there doesn't seem to be anything specific about this on any of the sellers websites.

Wikipedia has some good information about water / meth injection being used in ww2 aircraft.

Also the water absorbs some of the heat from the combustion cycle which will expand in the exhaust manifold as it goes through the turbine giving the turbo every assistance it gan get to build pressure on the coldside. Again this isn't really quantified anywhere.

@Mcandmar I will get some maxol tonight. Re logs hopefully sometime in the near future would be excellent.

@RPM have you selected a kit, nozzles, storage etc yet?

[vader s2]

maxol E5 and a bottle of octane boost = answer to poor fuel

[s2_wot]

Petrol quality is really only a small part of the equation in my mind and for the purpose of this thread let's park the issue here.

No matter what we do with an intercooler the very best it could do is reduce the temperature of the compressed air to the same temperature as what's outside. In reality the IC will be say 90% efficient. Then after the IC the air is heated again by a varying ammount depending on numerous conditions. The ECU sees this final temperature and pressure when it arrives at the intake manifold and it does it's thing.

Using water meth injection after the IC you aim to reduce this air temperature by several degrees before it gets to the IM.

Lower IAT's will result in the ecu advancing the timing rather than retarding it because of high temps. Likewise there is a lesser chance of knock and the ECU won't back off timing or boost as a result of that.

With motronic I'm not sure which comes first:

Lower IAT > more advance
Or
Combustion with lower IAT making the ECU happy enough to advance the timing.

Long story short I'm looking for a way of running maximum boost and timing safely as much of the time as possible.

Does water meth injection work well on our cars.

[S2central.net]

I5T machines make a lot more power on pure meth as a fuel. I know of one US tuner proving that (on 2.7TT as well) - so to lots of high end drag cars of course but running on pure meth aint gonna work for a daily driver.

I would expect that water/meth injection (a la aquamist etc) should help in bringing IAT down and therefore reducing chances of knock but I dont have any real-world data to speak of. It has been on the 'to do list' for ages

With datalogger, detcans and real-time mapping it should be easy to experiment safely on this and quantify what gains are available.

[s2_wot]

Paul, Thanks, pure methanol is out of the question.

Have you any info logged comparing IAT with ambient temps on a stock car with just homefries, or even just an educated guess on the IAT.

[s2_wot]

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

A worthwhile read for anybody who's interested in this.

[pw-rs2]

I work with Bruce Morris, the UK importer/agent for "Devils own" water-methanol injection systems. He will gladly talk to anyone about the pro's & con's of using these systems, how it works, how to fit it, what system would best work with your engine set-up, etc.
He is the supplier to Doug at MRC.

He is in Romsey, Hampshire.

Tel. 01794 517729 or 07851 600828

https://www.methanol-injection.co.uk

[S2central.net]

Only car I know of running water injection is a 3B so I have not had the chance to collect any data from it.

There are a couple other guys looking into it - I will be keenly pursuing them for logs with and without.

[Jonas_R]

I guess it would be fairly easy to have a combination of water/methanol in the washer fluid tank and then just use the pump for the headlight washer system. This would also make it more "stealth" looking and you would also have the washer fluid level sensor in the car.

Then you would need a nozzle and a control box. Don't know where it would be smart to place the injection nozzle but somewhere close to the throttle body?

http://www.efficient-mileage.com/water-injection.html

[Jonas_R]

Looking at DevilsOwn they have a controller with built in boost sensor of 30psi or 100 PSI if I read it correcly.

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/pro...roller-14.html

So then you would need some tubing and a nozzle.

[mcandmar]

Shane here is some data i captured on mine. Average temp calculated from 30min drive up the M1 @85ish, Peak temps measured after toll booth flat through the gears up to 6500rpms in 4th.

Run 1: 15 degrees ambient

17.8 average during steady cruise
21.7 peak temp during WOT run

Run 2: 17 degrees ambient

19.5 average during steady cruise
23.1 peak temp during WOT run

Run 3: 20 degrees ambient

23.5 average during steady cruise
25.9 peak temp during WOT run

So steady cruise averages 2-3 degrees above ambient temp, flat out blasts through the gears averages 6 degrees above ambient temp, then quickly returns to normal.

All three runs were done on different days but the runs were as identical as i can get. And most important the data seems consistent.

The bit i haven't quantified yet is heat soak, with the car sitting idle i have seen it above 40c.

[s2_wot]

I work with Bruce Morris, the UK importer/agent for "Devils own" water-methanol injection systems. He will gladly talk to anyone about the pro's & con's of using these systems, how it works, how to fit it, what system would best work with your engine set-up, etc.
He is the supplier to Doug at MRC.

He is in Romsey, Hampshire.

Tel. 01794 517729 or 07851 600828

www.methanol-injection.co.uk

Would Bruce like to come along here and educate us?

Link to their VW / Audi kit:

http://www.methanol-injection.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=55

Edit: Mark, just spotted your info; excellent and cheers for taking the time.