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500hp turbos- part 2

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  • 500hp turbos- part 2

    Hi @ all,
    since the first thread had to be closed due to bad accents I raise that topic again. No battle for best dyno, no ecological interest for manufacturers or tuners. Keep this as an info-thread with turbochargers, that are stand-alone capable of 500 hp crank power. No E85, no WMI, nothing else.

    For that power and torque lowering the CR via another headgasket or machining head or pistons is necessary; that lowers motor efficiency, but more boost is poaasible. Stock cams could be difficult to use, upgrade ones (7A, RS2 or aftermarket) will simplify it.

    So as kind of an introduction:
    For a certain power output, your need a certain amount of fuel burned. Burning a certain amount of fuel needs a certain amount of air. Turbochargers can flow a certain amount of air, limitted through the rpm limit given by size and material strength. That´s the secret

    For reaching secure 500hp with our 20VT, you need around 1550kg air/ hr, what is ~57lbs per minute (factor is 27.126). Since all turbos use similar materials, technology and physical laws, you can conclude, that similar sizes mean similar power limits. That is compressor wheel from 70-78mm to 50-58mm; turbine wheel 65-70mm to 55-62mm.

    Little over 500hp is a kind of reasonable limit in our motors using hydraulic valvetrain; bigger turbos boost later, so usable powerband gets to small for making sense in daily driven cars. Stepping over that line makes only sense with strongly modified heads with mechanical valvetrain, IMHO.

    Following turbos I know the air flowing capacitiy and therefore am quite sure they will work:

    Garrett:
    GTX3071 (maxed out); GTX3076R; GT3582R and higher

    BW:
    EFR 7064 (maxed out); EFR7670 and higher

    KKK:
    K26 3371 O...8.12 (b:12,5mm)(=>K26/27 with "8" th); K27.2 3371 O...9.11 or 11.11 and higher


    The GTX3071 and the EFR7064 maybe at limit; here the biggest turbine housing should be used. Smaller turbine housings give better spool, but choke earlier. For 500 hp a „8“ hotside is absolutely the minimum IMHO. Newer motors such as the TFSIs, are more efficient, so a "500hp-on-our-old-motor"-turbo can produce a bit more power on a newer motor. Same effect is reached by well-made headworks, good cams, exhaust, good intercooler etc. All that can help those turbos that are running at limit to really reach it.

    My statements are estimated very conservative; I hate showing off with high numbers, and I wanna use material in secure and reliable manner. In addition, german DIN power is measured a little different from e.g. british, what may result in smaller numbers. So yes, maybe, that someone reaches higher numbers than I estimate, by really maxing things out

    Since I do not have measurings or technical data of other turbos, now it´s on your turn list will be copied/ pasted to later posts from time to time.

    Feel free to comment, add to the list or ask. Hope, that everyone keeps right accents in here If my writing sounds a bit strange for some of you, I´m sorry- my english is not perfect corrections are
    Last edited by Quattronaut; 7th November 2014, 14:44.

  • #2
    I know that some dynos lie, but I have seen turbos that flow little over 50lb/min do 500bhp. 57 lb/min sounds very over the top to me. Eg a gt3076r on a 0.82 housing can be pushed to a genuine enough 500bhp on a 2.2 20vt with all the right bits. That compressor flows 52lb/min. And I'm talking no drugs here. So just good petrol 97 or 98 Ron.

    The efr 7163 should also easily do over 500bhp.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by diesel des View Post
      I know that some dynos lie, but I have seen turbos that flow little over 50lb/min do 500bhp. 57 lb/min sounds very over the top to me. Eg a gt3076r on a 0.82 housing can be pushed to a genuine enough 500bhp on a 2.2 20vt with all the right bits. That compressor flows 52lb/min. And I'm talking no drugs here. So just good petrol 97 or 98 Ron.
      On my lists, I have it with even 54lb/min; but as told I am calculating really conservative, with bad IC and no motorworks. Discussable; most people say, it´s reliable limit is around 480. Other votes?

      Originally posted by diesel des View Post
      The efr 7163 should also easily do over 500bhp.
      This one I do not have in my list of technical datas, therefore it wasn´t mentioned by me. But since the the 7064 is very similar size, it should (although not "easily", IMHO ) Added:


      Garrett:
      GTX3071 (maxed out); GTX3076R; GT3582R and higher

      BW:
      EFR 7064 (maxed out); EFR7163; EFR7670 and higher

      KKK:
      K26 3371 O...8.12 (b:12,5mm) (=>K26/27 with "8" th); K27.2 3371 O...9.11 or 11.11 and higher
      Last edited by Quattronaut; 6th November 2014, 23:17.

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      • #4
        Some efr 7163 info

        http://www.full-race.com/store/turbo...163-turbo.html

        It's a 60lb/min turbo so 500bhp shouldn't be breaking a sweat.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by diesel des View Post
          Some efr 7163 info

          http://www.full-race.com/store/turbo...163-turbo.html

          It's a 60lb/min turbo so 500bhp shouldn't be breaking a sweat.
          Ok-I didn´t know it came later than the other EFRs, and it flows that good. Then, "easily" seems the correct term

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          • #6
            glad i see this thread starts over again.
            one of a few I5 from Asia.

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            • #7
              I went with the 7163.

              Can't wait to report back how it responds with a 2.5L stroker.
              Find me on Instagram @pry4sno
              2010 Golf Sportwagen TDI /// Wifey Mobile
              1992 80q 20v /// Eventual AAN'd Winter Sled
              1990 Cq /// Project: Because Racecar

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              • #8
                There is one thing you forget, and that is octane based dynamic compression limitation.
                At some point you hit a brick wall, so it does not matter how much the turbo flows.

                While the GTX3071R, GT3076R and so on are all capable flowing the required amount of air, it is the ignition angle efficiency that dictates how much power you can extract from said mixture and how much you waste as heat. At 450hp on 98 RON with a standard CR 2.2T you are already wasting nearly 100hp compared to running MBT.

                There are a couple solutions - one is lowering the compression ratio.
                The other one is moving the powerband higher into the revrange, as the dynamic compression basically equals torque, and by moving the power higher into the rev range you are able to make more hp with the same torque.

                I would say for any of these turbos to make reliable 500hp, you at least need 7A cams and a stacked headgasket would not go amiss.

                The GT35R is a big turbo with big lag, it's capable closer to 570-600 on pump fuel, similar to a HX40.
                GTX3071R/GT3076R are very similar. HX35S also flows about the same amount of air as the 3076R. The Bullseye S256 will also flow enough air for 500hp and has extended tip technology - spoolup is also around 4k like the others.
                EFR I can't comment.
                Last edited by prj; 7th November 2014, 06:26.
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                • #9
                  Dmitri thanks for your very useful input. Stock compression ratio looks to be the problem on normal fuel then. Therefore oversized turbos are required to make 500bhp.

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                  • #10
                    Thinking about this more maybe we need to make 2 lists. One list is for completely stock engine internals but assume a bigger intercooler, suitable exhaust manifold and sysyem , suitable injectors. This list will generally have bigger turbos to get to 500bhp.

                    The second list will have modified engines so lower compression, maybe some head work, rods, and maybe some cams like 7a or rs2. On that second list you would have turbos like gt3076r and gtx3071r etc.

                    Call one modified list and the other stock list. How do people feel about that? Also if a turbo can get to say 475 genuine bhp then I feel at within 5 % of target it's close enough to go on a list. Just with the extra details that it's power is slightly less or indeed more than the magic 500bhp requirements. Thoughts?

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                    • #11
                      The problem that I see are guys like me that want to have power between 550hp and 600hp, you have to go higher has a GT30 and lag will increase dramaticly.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by popdemonic View Post
                        glad i see this thread starts over again.
                        Yes, but if it turns into another handbag session it will get closed again - with consequences for anyone posting with bad attitude.
                        Paul Nugent
                        Webmaster http://S2central.net
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by S2central.net View Post
                          Yes, but if it turns into another handbag session it will get closed again - with consequences for anyone posting with bad attitude.
                          Glad to see you again "alive" Ranger Walker

                          By the way... I've been told that gtx3071 is 550bhp turbo on 98 octane... At least in the Evo engine.
                          Is it not " too optimist " ?
                          RED Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VI TME nº 16 of 250
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                          • #14
                            The EVO engine is a most eficcient engine than ours

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                            • #15
                              This looks like just as fun as pulling toenails, but I just would like to remind You guys a couple of things.

                              First off, dyno results don't compare. Dyno is not a measuring tape, and different dynos make different numbers. Even same dyno makes different numbers, depending on fans, air conditioning, used correction method, ambient air temperature location, et cetera.

                              Second, too many variables to compare turbos by just looking at dyno graphs. Too many explanations and buts. Too many things affect the ultimate output.

                              Third, this has been a hot topic since birth of car forums. Especially Holsetism has been a religion here up north, like PRJ has proven here. For some freaky reason people have always been very faithful to their choise of turbo make. And it's kinda weird.

                              Fourth, as far as I know spoolup is yet to be determined in a fashion where it's comparable. People don't still understand spoolup same way, because it is not scientifically determined or precise physical phenomenon.

                              Fifth, even if dyno plots would nicely compare over borders, over cars, over different setups and different weather, it does not tell the whole truth. Throttle response, boost recovery and lag are something that are not precise either, just as spoolup, but behind these unscientific terms there are important features. I would like to see gtx2867 against hx35 dynoed on second gear. Or a dyno sweep of 1 and 2 seconds. I would also like to see how the power curve changes shape when done 1 second sweep, released to vacuum for 0,5sec and then done 1.5 sec sweep. Just like happens when launching and going trhough first two gears.

                              I want to see how quick the car is ready to launch from idle, using launch control or antilag.

                              None of these show on dyno plots, but they have enormous effect of "how good the turbo is".

                              I have done 500hp and 800Nm from a 2.2 on custom KT-series Garrett. What does it tell us? Absofukinglutely nothing. Alhtough it gives an opportunity of colourful, yet quite meaningless debate.
                              Last edited by repo; 7th November 2014, 10:43.
                              Everything less than 2 bar is considered to be naturally aspirated

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