648 AWHP 4cyl....

[prj]

i guess all i had to do to see your vast experience with tuning and standalone engine management was to look at your background. because you still refuse to answer my queries. but now i see why you will not answer. because you havent any.

chip tuning. wow.

i guess since all you know is stock BS then i guess you think everything is comparable to. so glad you "FEEL" qualified to comment.

Call me when you have mapped even ten cars yourself and have an idea how an engine works, and what goes on in the combustion chamber. Then perhaps you would not be "offended" by someone suggesting that running 17 deg timing on 8.5CR under E85 is way too little.

P.S. Don't "guess", you might "guess" wrong.

[JP]

and one of my 01E bellhousings is being used by a company called Quicktime, to develop an SFI rated bellhousing for any VAG motor that bolts to an 01E to use domestic transmission. like a T56, a Powerglide, whatever. thats for when i redo my MK1 rGTI into a RWD with a live axle 4-link setup and a longitudinal big turbo 20v. thats my next project.

I've got one sat in my drive with a baby atlas rear axle on a ladder bar. All caged up just needs front struts changing to finish. Transmission tunnel. Bulkhead everything finished with perspective Windows. Went to ax mate to change the front struts and he shifted me leaving the freshly painted car to rot before he disappeared with £160+k owing to his customers and suppliers.

Shame your the other side of the pond as the steering wheel is on the wrong side and coat a fortune to ship.

[JP]

Call me when you have mapped even ten cars yourself and have an idea how an engine works, and what goes on in the combustion chamber. Then perhaps you would not be "offended" by someone suggesting that running 17 deg timing on 8.5CR under E85 is way too little.

Last year running 119octane maxnos.756hp Flywheel running 35psi on a 4094 and solid lifter drag cams from catcams 93% duty cycle on 1200cc injectors, peak power at 8250rpm, power curve of a 3071 on a stock 1.8t up until 4800rpm after which it carries on climbing so very streetable. 8.35:1 compression ratio on a 2ltr stroke configuration we could not for love or money push past 18 degrees advance safely. Purely down to the fast burn combustion chamber design.

RS4 engine on stock cams 29psi boost on k26 hybrids using normal Tesco 99RON various dyno plots ranging between 795-845ps and 1000+nm although we settled at 795 in the end as a road car and is completely livid to drive on the 630ps wastegate pressure. We could advance the timing to 23degrees at the top.

Two reasons for the difference, 1 combustion chamber design and 2 cam profile. The technicalities in combustion chamber design re squish is too much to go into right now however cam profile is not.
Long and short the smaller the lobe separation the more overlap on the cam profile. Subsequently the smaller the window for optimum timing. The greater the overlap also the lower the peak timing at the top end on a FI motor. As both the 1.8t's in question are running fast burn combustion chambers and big overlap cams it is easy to see why they both run so little advance timing compared to motors running stock cams.

[prj]

Last year running 119octane maxnos.756hp Flywheel running 35psi on a 4094 and solid lifter drag cams from catcams 93% duty cycle on 1200cc injectors, peak power at 8250rpm, power curve of a 3071 on a stock 1.8t up until 4800rpm after which it carries on climbing so very streetable. 8.35:1 compression ratio on a 2ltr stroke configuration we could not for love or money push past 18 degrees advance safely. Purely down to the fast burn combustion chamber design.

RS4 engine on stock cams 29psi boost on k26 hybrids using normal Tesco 99RON various dyno plots ranging between 795-845ps and 1000+nm although we settled at 795 in the end as a road car and is completely livid to drive on the 630ps wastegate pressure. We could advance the timing to 23degrees at the top.

Two reasons for the difference, 1 combustion chamber design and 2 cam profile. The technicalities in combustion chamber design re squish is too much to go into right now however cam profile is not.
Long and short the smaller the lobe separation the more overlap on the cam profile. Subsequently the smaller the window for optimum timing. The greater the overlap also the lower the peak timing at the top end on a FI motor. As both the 1.8t's in question are running fast burn combustion chambers and big overlap cams it is easy to see why they both run so little advance timing compared to motors running stock cams.

This engine is however running E85, not pump... plus the OP knows that his engine is capable of running a lot more timing.
If you read all the posts, then you can see we both agree on that.

The OP misunderstood what I said, and instead of admitting to it, became abusive, that's all there is to it. Neither of us actually ever disagreed about what I stated, and most of this argument is silly.

If I wrote "I can't wait to see the numbers when timing is completely dialled in" (which I actually meant), then none of this would have happened, but trying to explain this is like banging your head against the wall.

[Billman]

Addition here: all the tall deck 95.5 crank I5 maps i saw (mostly with 7a cams doing 500+HP) do not run over 10 degrees advance in 98RON at 2 bar pressure.....

Stock engine is another story....

[JP]

This engine is however running E85, not pump....

Read again, the 756 1.8t is on 119octane maxnos (race fuel) with 18 degrees (egt's not exceeding 800 celsius measured on each of the 4 runners 4" back from the valve head) and the RS4 is on pump gas is the one with 23degrees.

[prj]

Read again, the 756 1.8t is on 119octane maxnos (race fuel) with 18 degrees (egt's not exceeding 800 celsius measured on each of the 4 runners 4" back from the valve head) and the RS4 is on pump gas is the one with 23degrees.

Sorry, missed that bit.
It still does not change anything in this case though:

i could run PLENTY MORE TIMING if i had a need to, but i just dont. its safe, it gets me down the track. E-85 loves timing, and we will go for ~750 after i run 9's.

I'm curious to see what this engine can deliver after a proper tune, I am sure you can get at least 100hp more.

Yes, perhaps I should have said it differently, perhaps my english is broken, either way, OP's response wasn't very nice.
At the end of the day we meant exactly the same thing, we both agree on the technicalities, the only question was in the presentation... and the only reason this happened is because you can not really convey intonation online.

[speeding-g60]

JP, your build on Edition38 was the reason i joined there in the first place, so i could see all of the pictures.... i have every one of them pertaining to my goal saved for reference.

http://www.edition38.com/forums/inde...t&fromsearch=1

so, prj, since you keep coming back, how about answering just one question for me.

keep in mind this is an honest sincere question not just being my usual self.

but do you think i would be safe to run 20 to 20.5 degrees timing? since we both seem to think yes, do you think i could do it?

[JP]

LOL why thank-you.

As for the timing what plugs you running? As there is some plugs that will let you run 1-2 degree more timing without the fear of the ceramic making its way through the turbo.

Also if you inspect the top of the piston using an internal engine camera see if any parts of the piston are burned clean or whether they are evenly coke over. As this will determine how even the burn is and the likelihood of throwing more timing at it. From a personal point of view I'd be happy with 17-18 for a safe lasting tune on a big power 1.8t. Seen too many of them with spark plugs out of the side of the head in my time from people trying to go higher not realising the effort VAG went into to make them fast burn.

[prj]

but do you think i would be safe to run 20 to 20.5 degrees timing? since we both seem to think yes, do you think i could do it?

I think the truth lies somewhere between 18 and 21 - the dyno will show if I am wrong or right.

P.S.
As to the question of "safe" - the definition of "safe" is stretched quite a bit on a 650whp motor, you know that better than anyone...

[speeding-g60]

this is 20.5 degrees, on the dyno. and not even at the peak torque or power, just leading up to it, and we taper the timing down as we go. watch the video closely and watch the fireball that appears, shoots around the engine bay, even going over the fuel cell.

so now maybe we see why i am going at it now with baby steps. this stuff, it is expensive. we refer to my motors by color now. Pink, Gold, Black, Silver.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DNwRL04QWI




here is $10k.....








here is the first motor. all 4 wrist pins broke, still made 592 AWHP.

[prj]

You were not running 45 psi this time.
Everything is connected... I still think you can run more timing with current boost, but obviously not at peak torque.
I won't have a problem admitting if I was wrong though, and I certainly won't get abusive.

[speeding-g60]

little steps at a time now.... no need to push things anymore

[speeding-g60]

no i wasnt running 45 psi that time. that log, that was after tuning 3rd gear all the way through to 40 psi just fine. we hit 4th gear just once and that was the result. but we tuned 3rd gear thru that point to 7800 rpm or so just fine, with 19-20 degrees at peaks.

it is a matter of cylinder pressure being too much i feel. but now, my sponsor has the capability to log that via fiber optic sensor in the head for the dyno mule motor.

[speeding-g60]

little steps..... just for now.

meet some other goals, then maybe push it. but no need to push if goals are met with a safer setup.