turbochargers for 500hp

[A80Avant]

It does considering all these graphs are on stock head with stock pistons and strong rods. Nothing special done to any of these cars.

WMI is hardly normal gasoline, isn't it? Straight pump - 460, maybe 470hp. With WMI 520 hp. With E85 570 hp.

It does not matter which gear on the dyno, as long as you are within dyno limits! Again if you had any experience with dynos you would know that. On the dyno you choose a gear, calibrate the RPM on said gear, and after that set a ramp rate in RPM/sec. If the dyno's max roller speed and wheel/axle torque rating allows it, then it does not make any difference if you do this in 3rd or in 6th.

Street graphs are pointless as comparison because all they show is road incline, wind speed and vehicle weight.
Heavier car - earlier spoolup on the graph, lighter car, later spoolup. Because of how the car accelerates. On a dyno the ramp rate is fixed, so the load on the engine is the same with a given ramp rate.

On the road you can do 100-200 pulls, which will be a good indication for comparing the car with another car, but completely useless from a power estimation or engine standpoint.

How about putting your money where your mouth is and getting your car dynoed? All I can see is talk, and no data.

I have, you dork. It made 468hp crank on 1.8bar falling to 1.6 and a sticking waste gate due to poor reconditioning. And it had the exact readings on my method of road testing.

This isn't about how much power my car makes and if you had any sense in the points you make you would have been posting more accurate information.

I don't give a rats *** about dynos as I can never be in control of what the user does to it. You are a tuner and you know what to ask of them. My experience is that ALL tuners asked dyno owners fiddle with their equipment to make your car seem less than what it actually makes so that you end up asking for their help and hence make more money out of you. So my only accurate reading is the above as I had a tuner check over my settings so I had less chance I was getting *******ted.

I have had my car 3 times on a dyno on various setups, and the costs ain't worth their results. My road experience is far more accurate and repeatable with a small margin of error.

Bottom line: HX35S on normal gasoline = no more than 460hp.

Also if you want the above results look for prj

[lucidmatt]

That's what I am hoping for. A conservative 500 hp. The super40 with the 7 blade compressor wheel should flow just under 75 lb/min. That's over 700 hp, maxed out... If I recall, the standard hx40 is capable of flowing around 625 hp and the hx35 flows about 500 max. A hx35/40 hybrid (hx35 hot side, hx40 cold side) would be a great street turbo but you'd be maxing the turbo out aT 550

[vti2]

Wich would be the best compromise for a 550hp setup?

[lucidmatt]

Just piping in- the hx40 and hx35 CHRA and shaft are identical. I can verify this as I rebuilt a HX35 into a Super40 using off-the shelf parts. the only custom machining I had to do was to the backing plate of the hx35 in order to fit the 86mm compressor wheel (HX35 is 83mm) I am using the 10 blade turbine wheel from a super40, and a billet machined 7 blade 60x86mm HX40 compressor wheel. The turbine is going to be spun by an undivided t3 .70AR hot side, and Thuppu's manifold is on the way. I'll post back with results as soon as shes up and running (in the spring...)

[prj]

So that is controlled with the drag of the dyno, the throttle is full open from start to end?

The throttle is of course open full from start to end.
Usually on a modern dyno you have a variable eddy current brake or a number of them.

This information can be easily found on google.

[Quattronaut]

So that is controlled with the drag of the dyno, the throttle is full open from start to end? Because first I thought, that is controlled via pedal- slower pressing it down. Which in no way would make sense to me :-)

Thanks Dmitri and Diesel- that ramp rate thing I did not know, but then it´s clear that the effect of different gears can be equaled.

[prj]

Dmitri you would say for 550+ on 98oct. it will be better the HX40?

Yes, you need HX40, but HX40 is only for drag racing on 2.2T, it is useless for anything other than going in straight line.
The shaft is bigger than HX35, the re-spool is slow, the spool is slow.

Uh, kinda agressive sounds in here...guys- I hope everbody, keeps calm, this ist just an information thread, and we all should be

Some people don't understand without a little forcing.

Maybe the overall torque and power numbers are the same, but I think especially the spoolup and rpm levels are influenced by gear, because spoolup needs time, and in lower gears you are running through rpm band that quick, that full boost could be reached only at higher rpm. For example- my old K26/27 was that ugly laggy, that even in 2. gear he only reached 1,5bar while 1,9 were mapped, and also reached in 5th gear.

Not on the dyno. On the dyno (if dyno parameters allow) with a fixed ramp rate (let's say 200rpm/sec) the spool will be exactly the same with 2nd or with 5th gear. Because the engine RPM is always increasing at the same speed e.g. 200 rpm/sec. No matter what gear you are in.

In reality you can not use 2nd gear because the torque multiplication is too much, and you can not use 6th gear because the roller speed will be too much. So usually you can choose between 3rd, 4th and 5th. Does not really matter which you pick.

It boils down to this - on the dyno you mostly test the engine. On the road you mostly test the whole car. When you are tuning the engine it is good to isolate as many parameters as possible. If you use the dyno correctly you can simulate different kinds of scenarios - slow ramp, fast ramp etc. Only by changing a few parameters.

[diesel des]

Ramp rate is how fast the engine e is allowed to rev up. Eg 500 rpm per second is a faster ramp than 250 rpm per second. A slow ramp rate is like driving in top gear and vice versa.

[Quattronaut]

How about putting your money where your mouth is and getting your car dynoed? All I can see is talk, and no data.

Uh, kinda agressive sounds in here...guys- I hope everbody, keeps calm, this ist just an information thread, and we all should be

It does considering all these graphs are on stock head with stock pistons and strong rods. Nothing special done to any of these cars.

Interesting, thanks.

and after that set a ramp rate in RPM/sec.

Dmitri, could you explain the term ramp rate to me? Could not find some good translation, and do not know it.

It does not matter which gear on the dyno, as long as you are within dyno limits!

Maybe the overall torque and power numbers are the same, but I think especially the spoolup and rpm levels are influenced by gear, because spoolup needs time, and in lower gears you are running through rpm band that quick, that full boost could be reached only at higher rpm. For example- my old K26/27 was that ugly laggy, that even in 2. gear he only reached 1,5bar while 1,9 were mapped, and also reached in 5th gear.

Dmitri, on the first dyno from your 2 latest ones, the lower lines, is that boost at intake mani? That very interesting, do you have some others sheets with these lines, to see, if there is delay between max boost and max torque?

[vti2]

Dmitri you would say for 550+ on 98oct. it will be better the HX40?

[lcsmith]

I'm loving this thread! Great reading guys keep it up!

[prj]

Do us a favor and as you consider yourself a perfectionist when posting graphs post everything about an engine. Just saying 2.2T and wmi doesn't say the true story.

It does considering all these graphs are on stock head with stock pistons and strong rods. Nothing special done to any of these cars.

A minute ago you said HX35S on normal gasoline does not make more than 460hp.

WMI is hardly normal gasoline, isn't it? Straight pump - 460, maybe 470hp. With WMI 520 hp. With E85 570 hp.

Which gear is the pull done? 4th? 5th?

It does not matter which gear on the dyno, as long as you are within dyno limits! Again if you had any experience with dynos you would know that. On the dyno you choose a gear, calibrate the RPM on said gear, and after that set a ramp rate in RPM/sec. If the dyno's max roller speed and wheel/axle torque rating allows it, then it does not make any difference if you do this in 3rd or in 6th.

Street graphs are pointless as comparison because all they show is road incline, wind speed and vehicle weight.
Heavier car - earlier spoolup on the graph, lighter car, later spoolup. Because of how the car accelerates. On a dyno the ramp rate is fixed, so the load on the engine is the same with a given ramp rate.

On the road you can do 100-200 pulls, which will be a good indication for comparing the car with another car, but completely useless from a power estimation or engine standpoint.

How about putting your money where your mouth is and getting your car dynoed? All I can see is talk, and no data.

[A80Avant]

Do us a favor and as you consider yourself a perfectionist when posting graphs post everything about an engine. Just saying 2.2T and wmi doesn't say the true story. A minute ago you said HX35S on normal gasoline does not make more than 460hp. Is that on a normal stock engine? Ported head? Bigger valves? Original cams? What exactly? Which gear is the pull done? 4th? 5th?

If you do have any graph without exotic fueling, post that as well. Not everyone wants to use that stuff or has access to it.

And finally if you do have some road dyno graphs that will tell even a better story as dynos are very user depended. My graphs are always street graphs.
My car in comparison is on normal gasoline, slightly larger valves, mild porting and ADU cams. 81.5 pistons.
The boost is at 3800 on 4th gear to 2 bar as requested. I use the 0.63ar and power is around 500hp figure using a mean of multiple runs on similar roads. There are graphs on my thread.

[prj]

If I have time, I might post some transient response graphs HX35 vs. HTA30R.
The difference is not big at all.

[prj]

And isn't it also true that better fuel means you can use higher comp.ratio and higher timing making spool come sooner as well?

Higher CR was not used on this car, CR was stock. Boost wise - more timing or richer afr, colder exhaust gas, slower spoolup. Less timing, leaner afr - hotter exhaust gas, faster spoolup. Engine tuning basics. Mitsus even have a "lean spool" feature.

My guess is that the 3800 could easily go to 4000 rpm with normal gasoline therefore making the HX35S a better turbo only by price. HTA 3076 has similar spool and makes more power with less boost but also costs double the price.

I think we have exhausted this thread again..

Blah blah blah.

HTA3076R does not flow more, all it has is somewhat better re-spool.

Spoolup
HX35 Super, 2.2T, 98 RON + WMI. Slower dyno ramp rate.


Spoolup
HX35 Super, 2.2T, 98 RON + WMI. Faster dyno ramp rate. MBC.


Spoolup depends more on dyno ramp rate and whether the turbo is hot or cold. Hotter turbo always spools quicker. But you wouldn't know that, since you don't really have dyno experience.

In practice there is no difference between E85 and gasoline spool, E85 just makes more final torque.