Extended ball joints for lowered suspension?

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  • stiglet
    S2Forum Extremist
    • Aug 2007
    • 1264
    • Country: United Kingdom

    #16
    I will certainly keep this updated. There could be problems with this though, apparently they can foul the discs and it looks as though i'll have to ditch my 15" Speedlines

    Will have to see....

    Comment

    • Fat Audi 80
      Super Moderator
      • Jan 2004
      • 10547
      • Country: England

      #17
      Can you get / make castor plates for the top mounts and move them inboard a little to add some negative camber?

      How low are you, I can't believe you need to move the ball joint or the top of the strut THAT much?

      Cheers,

      Steve.
      The Perfectionist
      sigpic
      Audi Class Concours winner Stoner Park 2014, ADI Concours D'Elegance Class Winner 2008, Runner up 2014. Winner, S2Forum Show'n'Shine Billing 2006 & 2008.

      Comment

      • stiglet
        S2Forum Extremist
        • Aug 2007
        • 1264
        • Country: United Kingdom

        #18
        Originally posted by Fat Audi 80
        Can you get / make castor plates for the top mounts and move them inboard a little to add some negative camber?

        How low are you, I can't believe you need to move the ball joint or the top of the strut THAT much?

        Cheers,

        Steve.
        You are are right, that would be far easier, but it's not the static camber thats the problem. It's the positive camber gain on hard cornering. Even at standard heights, Audi, similiar to VW with the Golfs, i now suspect will have designed in some front positive camber gain on purpose to make the car easier to drive on the limit and very progressive. I know they did this with the golf (a car with a very light rear end and what is effectively a very large RARB and it STILL understeers and it does so progressively) and after looking at pictures of my car on track i can see the angle of my wheels

        I don't think more static neg camber will help, as that will just give me crap braking and bad tyre wear, as well as very odd cornering abilities in the wet and dry.

        The problem here is to do with roll centres, body roll, and the wonderful marvel that is McPherson suspension geometry

        Comment

        • anton
          S2Forum Maniac
          • Jan 2005
          • 802
          • Country: United Kingdom

          #19
          to keep the same geometry as standard you would need to lower the balljoint the same amount as you have lowered, for me 1.5" is less than half but anything that brings the wishbone back towards being flat is good in my books as they are currently pointing to the sky lol the only thing that concerns me with these is how long you can go before you a) start to foul things like wheel/brakes. and b) introduce too much shear stress into the part. another think to consider is the change in bump steer, not sure if this would be a good or a bad change?!?!?! either way when th time comes tfor me to rebuild they are already on my list
          i also think more caster would give a decent ammount of benefit to our cars...

          Ant
          91' Coupe quattro 20v - project
          KW V2s and other goodies
          now gone
          03' BMW 330CI - Sold
          08' A5 Coupe 3.0l tdi quattro - Sold
          57' BMW 525d M Sport Touring

          Comment

          • Josh-stateside
            S2Forum Maniac
            • Jul 2003
            • 741
            • Country: United States

            #20
            Maybe dumb idea, but instead of extending the ball joint, why not just add a spacer between the 3 bolts that connect the ball joint to the control arm?
            I chose not to choose life: I chose something else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who need reasons when you've got quattro?

            Comment

            • stiglet
              S2Forum Extremist
              • Aug 2007
              • 1264
              • Country: United Kingdom

              #21
              Originally posted by Josh-stateside
              Maybe dumb idea, but instead of extending the ball joint, why not just add a spacer between the 3 bolts that connect the ball joint to the control arm?
              The pivot point has to be lowered in relation to the hub/strut. Altering the position of the ball joint in relation to the control arm will do nothing unfortunately.

              There is the other option of raising the subframe which has been done on motorgeeks, not sure how easy it is though....

              Comment

              • Josh-stateside
                S2Forum Maniac
                • Jul 2003
                • 741
                • Country: United States

                #22
                Originally posted by stiglet
                The pivot point has to be lowered in relation to the hub/strut. Altering the position of the ball joint in relation to the control arm will do nothing unfortunately.

                There is the other option of raising the subframe which has been done on motorgeeks, not sure how easy it is though....

                I thought the point was to make the control arms back to parallel? Wouldn't that flatten out the control arms?

                It seems like to me the best way to do all this would be to cut the strut tubes, flip the tie rod arm , shorten the strut tube, weld it all back together and get shorter shocks and then reconnect the tie rod underneath vs above the arm.
                I chose not to choose life: I chose something else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who need reasons when you've got quattro?

                Comment

                • stiglet
                  S2Forum Extremist
                  • Aug 2007
                  • 1264
                  • Country: United Kingdom

                  #23
                  Flipping the tie rod will solve the bump steer problem that i might have with these ball joints. And yes, you're right, the whole point of this is to lower the control arm BUT it isn't strictly the arm that needs lowering, it's the imaginary line formed from the centre of the ball joint to the inner pick-ups on the arm. This is what determines the roll centre and camber compensation. Hence, lowering the arm but not he ball joint makes no difference. The reaction line remains the same. Actual ball joint itself needs to be lowered with the lower control arm and everything else must stay in the same position (bar maybe the tie rod).

                  It's quite hard to explain in words, but this shows how the roll centre is determined.

                  Comment

                  • stiglet
                    S2Forum Extremist
                    • Aug 2007
                    • 1264
                    • Country: United Kingdom

                    #24
                    This is looking less and less likely

                    First of, there is definately a clearance issue;


                    It has been done before, but it involves putting a spacer in the hub and caliper carrier to bring the wheel (and disc) further out.

                    Secondly, the company in the States hasn't got back to me, so i may not get a set in the first place.
                    Last edited by stiglet; 6 November 2008, 02:34.

                    Comment

                    • Skull
                      S2Forum Possessed
                      • Mar 2004
                      • 3506
                      • Country: Slovenia

                      #25
                      what car is this? afaik the B4 thing is straight, not so angled....

                      well a little angled...

                      Last edited by Skull; 6 November 2008, 07:36.
                      Audi Quattro WR

                      Comment

                      • anton
                        S2Forum Maniac
                        • Jan 2005
                        • 802
                        • Country: United Kingdom

                        #26
                        i was thinking i dont remember them being that close on mine. i'm sure if they cant post it to the UK as a company then someone in the states will send it to you, i may be cheeky and ask 034 as i will be buying stuff from them about the time i'll be wanting to buy these anyway....

                        Ant
                        91' Coupe quattro 20v - project
                        KW V2s and other goodies
                        now gone
                        03' BMW 330CI - Sold
                        08' A5 Coupe 3.0l tdi quattro - Sold
                        57' BMW 525d M Sport Touring

                        Comment

                        • stiglet
                          S2Forum Extremist
                          • Aug 2007
                          • 1264
                          • Country: United Kingdom

                          #27
                          Finally got hold of the guy. He is making a batch now but it will take 3 weeks. They have to be heat treated, which I'm happy about to be honest!

                          I'm in a state of denial about the clearence issue. I'm hoping it's just a 1-peice strut thing....

                          Comment

                          • magarv
                            S2Forum Addict
                            • Jul 2004
                            • 323
                            • Home: Norway

                            #28
                            Have you calculated the new roll center and get them to machine a custom length extender or are you going for the "stock" 1,5" length?

                            Keep us posted on delivery time, price etc

                            I am planing to do rebuild my suspension geometry this winter myself. Tubular wishbones, extenders etc.
                            "Ring addicted"
                            8,43 BTG with trafic and roadworks:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYg50Bg2lVQ

                            Comment

                            • anton
                              S2Forum Maniac
                              • Jan 2005
                              • 802
                              • Country: United Kingdom

                              #29
                              Originally posted by magarv
                              Have you calculated the new roll center and get them to machine a custom length extender or are you going for the "stock" 1,5" length?

                              Keep us posted on delivery time, price etc

                              I am planing to do rebuild my suspension geometry this winter myself. Tubular wishbones, extenders etc.
                              The max he will do is 2" as that is the limit before the stresses are too high in his opinion ant that stillwont get back to stock for any of us i dont think, i havn't even tried to do any droppercalcs but from rough diagrams i have done my roll center is well under ground level and this may 'just' bing it to ground lol

                              Ant
                              91' Coupe quattro 20v - project
                              KW V2s and other goodies
                              now gone
                              03' BMW 330CI - Sold
                              08' A5 Coupe 3.0l tdi quattro - Sold
                              57' BMW 525d M Sport Touring

                              Comment

                              • redz
                                S2Forum Addict
                                • Mar 2007
                                • 222
                                • Country: United Kingdom

                                #30
                                Originally posted by anton
                                The max he will do is 2" as that is the limit before the stresses are too high in his opinion ant that stillwont get back to stock for any of us i dont think, i havn't even tried to do any droppercalcs but from rough diagrams i have done my roll center is well under ground level and this may 'just' bing it to ground lol

                                Ant

                                I had these on my Mk1 Golf 2lt valver it worked really well, so I'd be well up for a pair or 2..

                                Andy
                                s2 new project

                                On going !!!

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