Andyg's Colgate Wagon Project thread

[80Comp]

Looks fresh in that color
Really cool interiour as well.. (Never seen that before)

[andyg plym]

Well engine is out, took the head off and unsurprisingly found the head gasket blown but now also found score marks on the bore of cylinder 4. Waiting to hear back from local engine shop, I’ve not stripped an engine down to this extent before

[SteveH]

Is the first pic of No4 cylinder? I doesn't look like typical scoring. Has it ever been laid up for a good while? Perhaps water got into the cylinder and corroded it. You might be lucky and be able to hone it and fit a new set of rings.

[andyg plym]

Yes all the badness is on number 4 all others unmarked it has laid up for 2+ years before I bought it back but that was in 2011! Longest since then it’s not ran is around a month but it’s quite a plausible theory

[twenty valve]

that bore doesn't look good did you have any other head gasket symptoms before apart from oil in coolant? As SteveH said, it looks like water has leaked into the bore and corroded it, but if that was the case, I would expect there were serious problems when it was running before. Is that top line of damage around the bore level when the engine's in the car? (i.e. when the engine is tilted to the angle it's fitted at). Also I'm guessing you cleaned the top of the piston in the first picture after having taken the third picture?

It looks unlikely that will clean up with a hone and still be within tolerance for a stock piston. That's if the piston isn't fooked as well.

Best case scenario is you can clean up with a light hone in situ without stripping the block and refit the old piston with new rings which i think this is really unlikely. In that case, you'll be in for stripping the block and either; 1. sleeving the bore and reusing the old piston if it's ok, or finding another stock piston 2. reboring the cylinder and fitting a plus size piston (that's if you can buy a single 81.5 or 82mm piston)

Otherwise it's a full rebore and new set of pistons the money can really start to run away here

[simons2]

Excuse my ignorance but wouldn't reboring and fitting a plus size piston unbalance the engine ? I only ask because at some time in the future I might be in a similar situation

[andyg plym]

that bore doesn't look good did you have any other head gasket symptoms before apart from oil in coolant? As SteveH said, it looks like water has leaked into the bore and corroded it, but if that was the case, I would expect there were serious problems when it was running before. Is that top line of damage around the bore level when the engine's in the car? (i.e. when the engine is tilted to the angle it's fitted at). Also I'm guessing you cleaned the top of the piston in the first picture after having taken the third picture?

It looks unlikely that will clean up with a hone and still be within tolerance for a stock piston. That's if the piston isn't fooked as well.

Best case scenario is you can clean up with a light hone in situ without stripping the block and refit the old piston with new rings which i think this is really unlikely. In that case, you'll be in for stripping the block and either; 1. sleeving the bore and reusing the old piston if it's ok, or finding another stock piston 2. reboring the cylinder and fitting a plus size piston (that's if you can buy a single 81.5 or 82mm piston)

Otherwise it's a full rebore and new set of pistons the money can really start to run away here

It ran beautifully used no oil , used a bit of water but then the radiator was also leaking. It never overheated , just to reiterate the expansion tank was never once milky just dark oil coloured coolant

[twenty valve]

Excuse my ignorance but wouldn't reboring and fitting a plus size piston unbalance the engine ? I only ask because at some time in the future I might be in a similar situation

No worries not ignorant at all. Depending upon the change in piston weight, then technically yes it might do. But i would argue in any case, it would be negligible and wouldn't cause any detriment or noticable difference. In this scenario I definitely wouldn't worry about it. In other circumstances then sure you might wan't to consider getting a rebalance.

andyg plym That's interesting. Perhaps it's not as bad as it looks in the pictures. Keep us posted with what the engine shop say

[andyg plym]

Initially I couldn’t get a nail in the marks , I tried brake cleaner on a cloth and wiped it, then wd40 but only a very light go. Now the marks feel grainy when you rub your fingers over them
still waiting for a response from the engine shop but I guess they could also be on lockdown, I did watch some amusing YouTube videos one guy using a drill at high speed with some sort of bore cleaner and loads of lube.... it didn’t really work so best left to the pros I think!

whats the going rate on a hone? anybody done similar?

[SteveH]

You're looking at £50-£100 for honing depending on where you take it. One possibility if it is water damage is that you have some porosity in the head and the water has come into the cylinder via an inlet or exhaust port. If the related valve is open when the engine switches off, the water can leak down the port and enter the cylinder. I had this on a 3B head and had to get it welded and ultrasealed - http://ultrasealslough.co.uk/

If you are rebuilding the head, check all the ports and it will be easy to see if you have coolant which has been making its way through the casting.

[SteveH]

No worries not ignorant at all. Depending upon the change in piston weight, then technically yes it might do. But i would argue in any case, it would be negligible and wouldn't cause any detriment or noticable difference. In this scenario I definitely wouldn't worry about it. In other circumstances then sure you might wan't to consider getting a rebalance.

andyg plym That's interesting. Perhaps it's not as bad as it looks in the pictures. Keep us posted with what the engine shop say

I guess fitting one oversized piston isn't recommended, but if you were to do this and ensure the new piston weighed the same as the old one, then the engine balance shouldn't be too bad. You can remove weight from the underside of the piston to even the weights up.

[twenty valve]

Initially I couldn’t get a nail in the marks , I tried brake cleaner on a cloth and wiped it, then wd40 but only a very light go. Now the marks feel grainy when you rub your fingers over them
still waiting for a response from the engine shop but I guess they could also be on lockdown, I did watch some amusing YouTube videos one guy using a drill at high speed with some sort of bore cleaner and loads of lube.... it didn’t really work so best left to the pros I think!

whats the going rate on a hone? anybody done similar?

you will need to get all those marks out, and it sounds like a simple hone won't cut it (no pun intended). There's only so much material you can remove before the clearance between bore and piston is too large. IIRC stock clearance is around 0.0030" to 0.0035" (0.076 - 0.09 mm) but don't quote me on that. I would say you can push it a thou over this, but any more and you will likely suffer with piston slap, poor ring seal, excessive oil consumption etc etc. Depending on mileage, tune, and how well the engine has been looked after, you might already have exceed these tolerances just through wear. That leaves no room for even a light hone. Leave alone trying to hone out damage.

The video you saw was probably either a spring loaded hone tool or a flexi hone. These have their place and can be used with good effect. But typically the application is when you are just trying to deglaze a bore which is in otherwise good condition. This restores a fresh cross hatch pattern to enable new rings to bed in properly.

SteveH I would second the comment about getting the head checked out properly. These old heads can suffer badly with porosity. Again this depends on how well its been looked after (whether its always had good corrosion inhibiter/antifreeze and hasn't been left standing with old coolant). You definitely don't want to rebuild it and have the same problem come back.

And yeah you could balance up the new piston to match the old. Even though it's larger, it could actually be lighter than the original due to more modern alloys and design. But honestly it's not that serious.

[andyg plym]

Thanks for feedback guys, it’s not even on 80k miles but appreciate this may now be irrelevant. So worst case are we saying the block could be beyond repair ?

[SteveH]

Thanks for feedback guys, it’s not even on 80k miles but appreciate this may now be irrelevant. So worst case are we saying the block could be beyond repair ?

No mate! You just might need to get it rebored and get oversized pistons/rings and then get the crank assembly rebalanced.

[andyg plym]

So I heard back from the engine shop earlier, he said it looked like water ingress which he’d seen many times, ties in with the head gasket being particularly bad on the same cylinder and it has misfired slightly (for a couple of seconds) on start up for a while which would no doubt be coolant in the bore putting the spark out.
He believes although it looks bad he can easily get it out and will also do the work on the head. He has a good UK supplier of all reinz/ erling gaskets etc
I have to say at the moment without tempting fate it’s all looking positive and won’t cost too much.... famous last words.
if it is new pistons and all that goes with it I’m really not bothered about more power rs2+ is just nice