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  • #46
    J153 with manual a/c
    J44 with climate
    sigpic
    "For what you spent on that you could have brought a new car"
    BUT I DON'T WANT A NEW CAR!

    1995 S2 Avant, Volcano Black
    1982 VW Golf Mk1, primer yellow, will be finished one day, maybe.
    2003 VW T4 long nose X pack, (has become project)

    Comment


    • #47
      Getting to grips with these diagrams now

      Starting to answer my own questions

      I'm thinking of using some brake-out cables, hooking up the new system with the dash still in, get it 100% (except the recirc switch) and then doing the install.

      Looking forward to this now

      cheers

      rich
      sigpic
      "For what you spent on that you could have brought a new car"
      BUT I DON'T WANT A NEW CAR!

      1995 S2 Avant, Volcano Black
      1982 VW Golf Mk1, primer yellow, will be finished one day, maybe.
      2003 VW T4 long nose X pack, (has become project)

      Comment


      • #48
        Which diagram - from a B3/B4 schematic or B5 or C4 or some russki nonsense ?

        The Black box with number 4 nails it as J44 from proper Audi diagrams - compressor clutch relay - Front Auxiliary position 4 - its an 8-pin thang.
        Paul Nugent
        Webmaster http://S2central.net
        Administrator http://S2forum.com

        1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
        2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
        2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

        Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

        There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

        Comment


        • #49
          Oddly yes it is J153 on the manual system - been looking purely at climate diagrams tonight !!!

          There absolutely is no RECIRC flap on the MY97/98 Audi A4 - the N63 module that drives it gets deleted. See the attached sheet for a blow by analysis of differences between MY96 and MY97/98.
          Attached Files
          Paul Nugent
          Webmaster http://S2central.net
          Administrator http://S2forum.com

          1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
          2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
          2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

          Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

          There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

          Comment


          • #50
            Of course if you have MY97/98 climate housing and MY97/98 loom and head-unit then its irrelevant about the recirc function as it would appear this is something that just got phased out along the way.

            If you have the earlier MY95/96 climate housing from the A4 then it will have the recirc flap (N63) and the capability in the head unit to drive it.

            I also believe that if you CODE the A4 head unit as 4-cyl RHD that it will not go looking for the G111 speed signal... nicely avoids a false error as the 5-cyl compressor does not provide this signal in our S2/RS2 application.
            Paul Nugent
            Webmaster http://S2central.net
            Administrator http://S2forum.com

            1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
            2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
            2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

            Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

            There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

            Comment


            • #51
              Of course if you have MY97/98 climate housing and MY97/98 loom and head-unit then its irrelevant about the recirc function as it would appear this is something that just got phased out along the way

              Not quite as the part of the B4 system you have to retain is the evap housing which has the recirc flap within it, on a B4 this is the Vac type.

              I'm hoping I can put the B5 V71 motor driven recirc mechanism into the B4 evap housing. We won't know till I take the dash out.

              cheers

              rich
              sigpic
              "For what you spent on that you could have brought a new car"
              BUT I DON'T WANT A NEW CAR!

              1995 S2 Avant, Volcano Black
              1982 VW Golf Mk1, primer yellow, will be finished one day, maybe.
              2003 VW T4 long nose X pack, (has become project)

              Comment


              • #52
                That spreed sheet is a big help Paul
                sigpic
                "For what you spent on that you could have brought a new car"
                BUT I DON'T WANT A NEW CAR!

                1995 S2 Avant, Volcano Black
                1982 VW Golf Mk1, primer yellow, will be finished one day, maybe.
                2003 VW T4 long nose X pack, (has become project)

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by S2central.net View Post
                  But it does not feature for MY97 or MY98 - instead the supply is a switched feed on a black/red wire that lands on pin D9 of the head unit.

                  Pin D9 on the MY96 wiring has a completely different purpose with a connection to F73 (refridgerant low pressure switch on the evaporator) so be careful like I said to ensure everything lines up.
                  It's true that D9 on MY96 goes to F73, but actually so do several other things and they all go to the "X" 12 volt feed so even for MY96, D9 is still the pin feeding power into the CCU for external loads. Of the four connectors on the CCU, D is the power connector & it's my belief that behind connector D is a power driver chip that the CCU microcontroller drives and pin D9 is the source of power for that chip to source or sink into loads such as the flap motors and compressor relay.

                  I suggest that D9 has the same function for all 3 model years in your spreadsheet. It's also why I believe D6 will drive the recirc solenoid (N63) across all the model years if a version of the software that uses N63 is in the CCU, i.e. if you download A80 or MY96 A4 software into a MY97 or 98, the recirc solenoid will work

                  John

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by S2central.net View Post
                    Oddly yes it is J153 on the manual system - been looking purely at climate diagrams tonight !!!
                    J44 on the climate system and J153 on the manual A/C both switch the A/C compressor but they are different numbers because they are different units.

                    J44 is a simple relay with a protection diode in it that switches the compressor on and off under control of the Climate Control Unit.

                    J153 is also a relay that switches the compressor but also has some basic logic in it which accounts for all the "brain" that the manual air-con system has. J44 doesn't need those logic functions as the Climate Control Unit does that and more outside of J44.

                    If you fit climate control into a car that already has manual air-con, you need to change the J153 relay to a J44 relay and re-route some of the wires going to the old J153 socket to the new Climate Control Unit.

                    John

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Oh yeah - the EVAP housing from B4 with aircon is retained here - I forgot that.

                      And johne is right to spot that D9 on the MY96 system is switched 12V via the X contact - I had just picked up the F73 connection as the 1st thing I saw it attached to.

                      So yes I agree that the head unit hardware is likely common, but I dunno how you put B4 or early B5 software into the CCU - unless there is a chip that can be swapped - which I doubt as I expect it is embedded into microcontroller at time of manufacture... Might be worthy of some investigation. If someone wants to post a photo of CCU internals I would gladly have a look.

                      On the recirc thing though - is it a big deal if the B4 flap is left in default off position as the later A4/B5 CCU will not be looking to control it anyway ?
                      Paul Nugent
                      Webmaster http://S2central.net
                      Administrator http://S2forum.com

                      1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                      2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                      2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                      Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                      There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by johne View Post
                        J44 on the climate system and J153 on the manual A/C both switch the A/C compressor but they are different numbers because they are different units.

                        J44 is a simple relay with a protection diode in it that switches the compressor on and off under control of the Climate Control Unit.

                        J153 is also a relay that switches the compressor but also has some basic logic in it which accounts for all the "brain" that the manual air-con system has. J44 doesn't need those logic functions as the Climate Control Unit does that and more outside of J44.

                        If you fit climate control into a car that already has manual air-con, you need to change the J153 relay to a J44 relay and re-route some of the wires going to the old J153 socket to the new Climate Control Unit.

                        John
                        John - we are on fire tonight

                        Agreed 100% on your logic there... its great you did so much homework on this one !
                        Paul Nugent
                        Webmaster http://S2central.net
                        Administrator http://S2forum.com

                        1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                        2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                        2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                        Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                        There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by S2central.net View Post
                          Oh yeah - the EVAP housing from B4 with aircon is retained here - I forgot that.

                          And johne is right to spot that D9 on the MY96 system is switched 12V via the X contact - I had just picked up the F73 connection as the 1st thing I saw it attached to.

                          So yes I agree that the head unit hardware is likely common, but I dunno how you put B4 or early B5 software into the CCU - unless there is a chip that can be swapped - which I doubt as I expect it is embedded into microcontroller at time of manufacture... Might be worthy of some investigation. If someone wants to post a photo of CCU internals I would gladly have a look.

                          On the recirc thing though - is it a big deal if the B4 flap is left in default off position as the later A4/B5 CCU will not be looking to control it anyway ?
                          There's a picture of the internals towards the end of my guide, but I suspect what you're after is under the silver screening tin. Happy to take that off and take a more detailed picture if you'd like. What you're saying implies you can only change coding bits for different model variations via VAGcom, not download whole actual code bases.

                          You're right, not having the vacuum recirc flap won't matter as N63 is controlled open loop so the CCU is none the wiser. However, on the later cars with a motorised flap, the CCU will expect to get position information fed back so if it isn't there the CCU may throw an error.

                          One neat touch in the CCU software is that if you turn the fan speed down to zero, the recirc flap goes to the closed position.

                          John

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            So remind me what is used in MY97/98 to effect the 'recirc' function where the N63 flap has been deleted. I'm not seeing an additional motor/pot for it - maybe I am just snowblind.
                            Paul Nugent
                            Webmaster http://S2central.net
                            Administrator http://S2forum.com

                            1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                            2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                            2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                            Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                            There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Oh and I tweaked the spreadsheet for added correctness...
                              Attached Files
                              Paul Nugent
                              Webmaster http://S2central.net
                              Administrator http://S2forum.com

                              1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                              2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                              2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                              Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                              There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Here's another 'find' - the J153 relay on manually controlled a/c fitted to V6 B3/B4 models has rudimentary OBD capability - I have yet to check if it is pin swappable with J153 on 5cyl engine, but I suspect it will throw a wobbly about lack of G111 input - nothing to do with full blown climate upgrade here but maybe a sneaky way to add some OBD capability onto S2/RS2 with manual aircon. Watch this space - in about 3yrs when I get round to investigating properly - LOL
                                Paul Nugent
                                Webmaster http://S2central.net
                                Administrator http://S2forum.com

                                1994 S2 Coupe ABY - aka Project Lazarus
                                2001 A6 allroad 2.5TDi - family tank
                                2003 S4 Avant 4.2 V8 - daily burble

                                Purveyor of HomeFries and Exclusive agent for Samco hose kits (S2/RS2)

                                There are only 10 kinds of people that understand binary - those that do, and those that don't

                                Comment

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